Live data from Hacker News

Product Marketing for Engineers

github.com

71–80 of 89 posts

Re: Product Marketing for Engineers

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your view on this will depend on what do you believe the distribution of good vs. evil in marketing looks like. Is it like this? ^ DECENCY PROFIT | ---> /---- EVIL GOOD Or like this? ^ DECENCY PROFIT | -> |\ | \ EVIL GOOD I personally believe it's the latter. I added arrows indicating opposing incentives at personal level, and I believe the profit motive is much stronger than personal morals, for two main rea…

I tend to share your view, and your views in general (lisp, moloch, etc), and I wanted to run an idea by you. I feel like much of the marketing problem comes from three places: - overcompetition (too many useless products competing for mindshare) - inefficiency (if you can't target your marketing well, you just shotgun it out) - debt (pressure for cash makes people do things they otherwise wouldn't) So we end up with…

About the three problems, I agree about the first two; debt definitely has impact, but I'm not sure how big and in what forms. You're probably right, though. I'll need to think more about it. For instance, there's definitely debt-based pressure on the low-wealth end of society, which makes people work on things they otherwise wouldn't. But what about the high end, the decisionmakers? Do they face similar debt-driven pressure?

Here's what I think a half-overhaul towards pull-based economy would look like. At a minimum, no advertising in push form whatsoever. That means no ads on the web, no ads in newspapers (on-line or print), TV, no product placement, no leaflets, no billboards. No ads of any kind where you'd encounter them by accident. Product discovery would be focused on company sites, on-line catalogs, mail-order catalogs, on-line product/service search engines, trade shows, and other outlets which were labeled up-front as product discovery. The goal here is that an ordinary person should have full control over whether and when they get exposed to advertising, and secondarily, to make it customer-driven. Make it easy for the person with needs to find solutions to these needs, evaluate different options based on trustworthy information[0], and pick one that works best for them.

That's more-less the idea I have on this topic. It's incomplete, probably a bit incoherent, and definitely not optimal for hundreds of reasons. I expect it to be torn apart, and I'll be thankful for criticism - I can't develop it further without feedback :).

As for how to make any of this happen for yourself, today? I'd start with the obvious - aggressive ad-blocking, avoiding exposing yourself to anything that smells of content marketing, getting rid of your TV service (the hardware itself can still work well for playing games on a console). Never doing product discovery on an e-commerce site. Asking trustworthy friends for recommendations of products and services, and giving recommendations if asked, qualifying your level of certainty and disclosing any conflict of interest. Being proactive about searching for things you need on-line. Perhaps subscribing to an industry magazine, but bearing in mind that it's - to quote Paul Graham, "a bunch of ads, glued together by just enough articles to make it look like a magazine"[1], and otherwise not trusting it further than you can throw it. Inflicting social pressure on people who decide to monetize their friends and family, if you know any (MLMs, influencers). Also, learning to respect your money and not spend it on an impulse - to counter the long-term influence of advertising. Make each purchase a conscious one.

That's more-less what I do. I barely see any overt ads on-line these days. Can't avoid covert ads, can't avoid meatspace ads either, but I can make damn sure that if I feel sudden desire for a particular product or product category, I'll pause and spend some time researching it independently before making a decision. The goal here isn't to stop buying things, but to maximize the utility and happiness you buy per dollar spent.

--

[0] - Efficient market requires minimizing information asymmetry. To the extent advertising is spreading disinformation, it's making the market less efficient.

[1] - http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

Re: Product Marketing for Engineers

#72
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't seen this, you'll be in for a treat: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ It's a very thorough discussion of the topic. A rather long read, but absolutely worth it.

Interesting read. What I don't get is that they compare Moloch (total competition) to Nature. > (I’m not really sure how widely people appreciate the value of analogizing capitalism to evolution. Fit companies – defined as those that make the customer want to buy from them – survive, expand, and inspire future efforts, and unfit companies – defined as those no one wants to buy from – go bankrupt and die out along wit…

The human body (and most systems like it) essentially have lots and lots of systems whose essential purpose is to prevent the cells in our body from competing with each other, and when these systems break and allow our cells to compete freely with each other it leads to cancer.

Re: Product Marketing for Engineers

#73
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't seen this, you'll be in for a treat: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ It's a very thorough discussion of the topic. A rather long read, but absolutely worth it.

Interesting read. What I don't get is that they compare Moloch (total competition) to Nature. > (I’m not really sure how widely people appreciate the value of analogizing capitalism to evolution. Fit companies – defined as those that make the customer want to buy from them – survive, expand, and inspire future efforts, and unfit companies – defined as those no one wants to buy from – go bankrupt and die out along wit…

By coincidence, the same author has wrote an article about that very recently: https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/05/12/studies-on-slack/. In particular, see section II.

I'm still processing the article in my head, but as I understood it: it's important that all cells in your body share the same genome. For some reason, evolution in multicellular organisms can be seen as two-tier - competition between the cells, and competition between collections of cells (organism). The higher-level competition forces the individual cells to behave in fully-cooperative way; those organisms that can't enforce order within get cancer and die prematurely.

The mechanics of it seem sound, and it's a nice model for a lot of things, natural and otherwise, but I'm still confused about how such two-tiered evolution could've arisen in nature wrt. multi-cellular structures.

Re: Product Marketing for Engineers

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your view on this will depend on what do you believe the distribution of good vs. evil in marketing looks like. Is it like this? ^ DECENCY PROFIT | ---> /---- EVIL GOOD Or like this? ^ DECENCY PROFIT | -> |\ | \ EVIL GOOD I personally believe it's the latter. I added arrows indicating opposing incentives at personal level, and I believe the profit motive is much stronger than personal morals, for two main rea…

Those ASCII graphs look nice! What tool did you use to make them?

Just Emacs in Artist Mode.

Re: Product Marketing for Engineers

#77

Been looking for a guide like this. Recently finished an MVP as a personal project, and was thinking about how promote it. It's a daunting task. It's nice to think that l337 design (well... It's functional, hopefully) and a Reddit/HN post will be enough, but that's probably analogous to writing the first test record to your dev database, techwise... On top of that, confidence is a big thing. What if my core hypothesi…

As someone who has turned side-projects into acquired products and companies, your primary focus should be learning as much as possible and being as humble as possible (to facilitate the learning process). Chances are overwhelming that your current product "sucks" so to speak, but you should remain confident that you can likely get from "it sucks" to "it's actually pretty useful" fairly quickly by getting it in front of people and letting users use it.

Stay humble, get it out there, focus on learning, and good luck!

Re: Product Marketing for Engineers

#78
post #3

Original source: https://github.com/LisaDziuba/Marketing-for-Engineers --- For what it's worth, one of the best articles in the list, for me, was patio11's: Business of SaaS - https://stripe.com/au/atlas/guides/business-of-saas

Out of all the articles, Stripe Atlas ended up being the best for me as well. It's good to know the struggles of pricing a SaaS offering aren't unique to my business.

Re: Product Marketing for Engineers

#79
post #52
post #11

I’ve often found engineers really struggle to jump over their own shadows when it comes to marketing. Things like... - “Marketing is evil!” ... perhaps but it’s also a necessary evil if you want anyone using your product - “Build it and they will come” ... except they won’t unless you tell people - “I hate spam/push messages/ads therefor everyone else must do to” ... but engineers tend to be the grumpiest about this…

I'd love to be good at marketing, I'm just... not. I'm good at empathizing with users, but that doesn't help if you don't have any because you suck at marketing.

It’s a skill you can train just like any other.

We all sucked at programming in the beginning too! Just keep at it and your marketing chops will improve.

Re: Product Marketing for Engineers

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to share your view, and your views in general (lisp, moloch, etc), and I wanted to run an idea by you. I feel like much of the marketing problem comes from three places: - overcompetition (too many useless products competing for mindshare) - inefficiency (if you can't target your marketing well, you just shotgun it out) - debt (pressure for cash makes people do things they otherwise wouldn't) So we end up with…

About the three problems, I agree about the first two; debt definitely has impact, but I'm not sure how big and in what forms. You're probably right, though. I'll need to think more about it. For instance, there's definitely debt-based pressure on the low-wealth end of society, which makes people work on things they otherwise wouldn't. But what about the high end, the decisionmakers? Do they face similar debt-driven…

I guess what got me on this tack was the thought that advertising serves vendors. It should in the sense that they're the ones paying for it, but a bunch of problems arise therefrom. What would it look like if I, the consumer, took that responsibility on myself, and was willing to pay for it?

There's a case to be made that people get the marketing they deserve, as evidenced in their voting patterns and buying behavior. It's interesting to contemplate what things would be like if consumer groups, like department stores, had "buyers." YouTube reviewers or industry mags supposedly serve that role right now, but inevitably get corrupted because of where the money comes from.

Post reply on HN