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Shorten the Workweek to Reopen Safely

theatlantic.com

71–78 of 78 posts

Re: Shorten the Workweek to Reopen Safely

#71

If everyone started working fewer hours for the same pay you would be effectively devaluing the dollar. You wouldn't actually be adding more value to the economy. Value in the economy is created by work and there is simply no substitute for that. Shortening the work week would simply make less value in the economy, making us all poorer and more idle. Too much idleness I can tell you leads to stress, even more stress…

The Makeup of a Dollar [1] would be little affected by a change in working hours, because only the effects of labor are measured, not the actual duration of labor itself.

[1] https://satisologie.substack.com/p/the-makeup-of-a-dollar

Re: Shorten the Workweek to Reopen Safely

#72
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many workplaces have been moving in this direction over the past decade. Not only do employees love it; there are also serious cost savings for employers. Pretty much everyone wants to go this direction. The problem is that there are still serious hurdles in place -- mainly due to the nature of the work, or cultural/interpersonal challenges.

I think you're living in a bubble if you believe that everyone wants to go into that direction. At least here in Germany, butts in seats is still very important. The only office workers I know who can work from home during the pandemic are programmers. Everyone else still has to go to the office.

I don’t think employees want to waste time commuting and employers want to waste money on real estate.

The reason most people still go to the office is because of the hurdles I mentioned above.

Yes, there is certainly a lot of work can’t be done behind a computer, or workforces that can’t effectively collaborate over a computer. But I don’t think that means they wouldn’t if they could.

Re: Shorten the Workweek to Reopen Safely

#73
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what is the plan? We can't sit around for five years until there is a vaccine. By then we'll all have caught it anyway. Nevermind that food supply chain will have dried up way before then and nobody will have a job anymore. Even with my posh job at a big cloud provider, I can't imagine the public still caring about any new feature dev if this goes on more than a year, so bye bye "recession proof" job. I can't ima…

>> But what is the plan? There isn't one. Government has done little to nothing with the time they bought with our sacrifices. Mostly this is due to the fact there isn't a lot TO do - getting the hundreds of millions of tests that people want so some large percentage of the country can be tested daily is impossible anytime soon due to raw materials/resources. Governments release plans to reopen that don't feature a s…

We're fucked aren't we.

I'd never thought it all the way through until last night. But I don't see how we make it though this without something on par with the Great Depression.

Right now Microsoft and Amazon have this little bump due to WFH and stockpiling, giving tech workers reason for hope, but that'll start fading soon and they'll go down with everyone else.

It's the whole boiling frog parable really, isn't it.

    * Some virus in China: no big deal it's China.
    * Some virus here: no big deal it'll blow over.
    * Lots of virus here: no big deal we'll WFH for a while.
    * "A while" is up and more virus: no big deal we'll keep WFH.
    * Unemployment is 6M/wk: no big deal look at AMZN/MSFT.
    * Pork processing plant shuts down: no big deal there's other food.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
      This should scare the shit out of everyone still living.
Why do we think that in two years, we'll still have enough of a supply chain that vaccine development can continue unimpeded?

People talk about a V-shaped recovery, but I think we're very close to the tipping point. This depends on the existence of expendable pocket money for the public, an existing supply chain, and stable cash flow. All of this will be gone in about two months. If we're stuck with this for two years? There will be no product to buy, nobody to buy it, and no infrastructure to build it. Home values will drop, people will default, and the whole country from NY to SF to Dubuque will look like Detroit of 2008 or worse, cities and suburbs alike, but there won't be a "not-Detroit" of investors to come and fix things this time. Most of us who are young, intelligent tech workers living through a 13-year boom cycle have a hard time understanding this.

Not looking forward to this. The lone bright spot, China (assuming they're able to keep things in check) starts hiring the brightest from around the world, and that's how this empire ends.

Re: Shorten the Workweek to Reopen Safely

#74
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If work from home ends up really sticking around, I'm sure plenty of cost-cutting employers will expect everyone to buy their own computers, but expect employees to all install keyloggers and monitoring software in order to work. And people will accept it, because they'll be fired if they refuse and someone more desperate will deal with it so long as they get paid at some point.

> And people will accept it I definitely never think about working at any company that wanted employees installing keyloggers. As software engineers thankfully we're in enough demand to where I don't see it getting that extreme, but I could see that scenario for more oversupplied industries. In any case, the requirement of that kind of surveillance software to do one's job should be made illegal.

It's already happened in the freelancing / lower-level software work, time tracking apps and the like are common on upwork.

Re: Shorten the Workweek to Reopen Safely

#75
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> But what is the plan? There isn't one. Government has done little to nothing with the time they bought with our sacrifices. Mostly this is due to the fact there isn't a lot TO do - getting the hundreds of millions of tests that people want so some large percentage of the country can be tested daily is impossible anytime soon due to raw materials/resources. Governments release plans to reopen that don't feature a s…

We're fucked aren't we. I'd never thought it all the way through until last night. But I don't see how we make it though this without something on par with the Great Depression. Right now Microsoft and Amazon have this little bump due to WFH and stockpiling, giving tech workers reason for hope, but that'll start fading soon and they'll go down with everyone else. It's the whole boiling frog parable really, isn't it.…

The main difference here is that the Fed is refusing to fail. They have acquired more assets in 45 days than they did for the entirety of any single QE period. With nominal rates in the gutter and the appetite for US debt still high, the Fed will print, and print, and print. Asset class will get bailed out regularly.

People think this has a major negative impact on the national debt, and while it's somewhat concerning, it's really not that much of an issue as long as people want our debt that we denominate in our own currency.

The problem is that populism will continue grow unchecked as the asset classes are bailed out and their assets are propped up and backstopped by the Fed, while the common man gets a smaller and smaller share of the bailout funds. Politicians will quite rightly point this out and will use it as a lever in their campaigns. If it all sounds familiar... well, the man currently in office is an expert at that angle.

That doesn't mean we aren't fucked. I am merely saying that it's pretty unclear what the future holds, as evidenced by the stock market's precarious position.

Re: Shorten the Workweek to Reopen Safely

#77
post #60

If everyone started working fewer hours for the same pay you would be effectively devaluing the dollar. You wouldn't actually be adding more value to the economy. Value in the economy is created by work and there is simply no substitute for that. Shortening the work week would simply make less value in the economy, making us all poorer and more idle. Too much idleness I can tell you leads to stress, even more stress…

You are making an unsound assumption that longer hours mean more economic output. In some kinds of jobs this may be true, but in others-- especially ones with substantial intellectual or creative components-- it isn't. In some cases studies have showed increased output from reduced working hours.

[dead]

Re: Shorten the Workweek to Reopen Safely

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is true. Employers have so much leverage in this labor market, and nobody ever got promoted in a large corporation for promoting workers' rights. The only solution seems to be: 1. Universal Basic Income - ie. giving people the freedom to say no to sh*tty jobs rather than being forced to take the least bad offer 2. Make a law that gives employees the right to work remotely if their job can reasonably be done…

Is there some new godwin's law that any non-technical discussion will in X steps derail into 'UBI-is-the-only-solution' ?

Maybe when the discussion is labor rights
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