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If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

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Re: If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

#71

Post by rsify »

jaggederest wrote: post #65
rsify wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there's someone who would accept working at each of those places just fine. Even the worst ones. Yes, people desparate enough to subject themselves to poorer working conditions. What's the single benefit for companies to cut themselves off from potentially good employees?

Honesty? People are going to know what is up within the first month, at minimum, so don't waste their time? This goes along with a broad category of attempted deception that fails because the person you're attempting to deceive has, typically as a part of their job, understanding the actual state of thing you're trying to lie about. Especially egregious when it creates a safety risk, for example, but bad enough when…

How many IT people do you know that have quit after a month because of poor conditions? And how many do you know that suck it up and just stick to complaining about their job?

Engineers don't want their time wasted, but companies have no benefit in trying to prevent it as far as I can see. What kind of brand image would they portray if they started saying how bad their tech stack is?

Re: If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

#72

Post by RangerScience »

dbetteridge wrote: post #28
RangerScience wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently switched from mac to windows (nice desktop gaming rig) - and although I ran into a day's worth of issues getting WSL2 setup so I could use Docker - it's been smooth sailing with VSCode otherwise.

Yeah, admittedly wsl has helped on that front. My main pain points were related to filesystem access, primarily its speed for things like npm install and running test suites. Though if you're just using a docker image through wsl2, does that alleviate those issues?

Dunno. I also upgraded to those new M2 "hard drives". Right now the docker images are the dependencies (redis, sunspot, PG) and the test suite isn't particularly large, but also isn't particularly optimized (ex: there were a bunch of tests that looked like they were VCR'd, but weren't), so I suspect any speed differences from the file system would be swamped by all that.

I can appreciate wanting a fast NPM install, but how often are you doing that that it's any kind of significant?

Re: If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

#73

Post by rsify »

rocqua wrote: post #70
rsify wrote: post #11

Do you think that companies like G are going to be able to hire literally anyone if they start advertising all the mess that they are working around? Why would you write this article from an engineer's standpoint with arguments that will only benefit other engineer's but for some reason is directed at companies? Why not just call it "I'm upset with the dev experience" and be honest about your intentions?

If companies with decent process start doing this, and a company refuses to share their process, then everyone who listened to this is better off. Now of course, the companies with shitty process did not (and maybe should not) take this advice. However, the situation improved for everyone for whom it should.

If a company already has good practices in place they're obviously advertising them already. What are you saying?

Re: If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

#74

Post by 411111111111111 »

hrktb wrote: post #59
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never even occured to me to lie on my resume. Surely I can't be the only one.

It’s seldom straight lying and more often omission of critical facts or misrepresentation of their roles on projects. Which sadly is the common advice given to people writing resumes, and it becomes a prisonner’s dilemma. I assisted at whole interviews where “tech leads’ craftily avoid recognizing they code at most half an hour a day. Or a dev listing super hard stuff on their resume but never mentioning until thorou…

Why is pair programming an issue here?

Personally I find pair programming hard stuff way better, because your constantly talking about the challenge a find issues earlier than when you just implement your initial solution.

I never thought that is somehow bad, but I guess people have different worldviews

Re: If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

#75

Post by jaggederest »

rsify wrote: post #71
jaggederest wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honesty? People are going to know what is up within the first month, at minimum, so don't waste their time? This goes along with a broad category of attempted deception that fails because the person you're attempting to deceive has, typically as a part of their job, understanding the actual state of thing you're trying to lie about. Especially egregious when it creates a safety risk, for example, but bad enough when…

How many IT people do you know that have quit after a month because of poor conditions? And how many do you know that suck it up and just stick to complaining about their job? Engineers don't want their time wasted, but companies have no benefit in trying to prevent it as far as I can see. What kind of brand image would they portray if they started saying how bad their tech stack is?

Well, every person I know who excels at their career can say "Wait, no, this was a bait and switch" and bow out gracefully in the first couple weeks and take one of their backup offers.

I've also worked for extremely corporate companies, and a lot of the saner people backed away slowly during the interview process, but some people took a week or two at the company to register "yes it's really that bad" and bail.

Re: If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

#76

Post by rsify »

evilsetg wrote: post #67
rsify wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't present valid arguments to benefit the company don't title it like advice. I clicked the article expecting some more hopeful arguments than "hurr durr I got baited into doing things I don't like", but I see none.

Consider that maximizing profit might not be the only possible goal for a company but minimizing human suffering and being truthful can be others.

To minimize human suffering you have to donate out all your earnings and be non-profit. I don't have anything against that, but those are irrelevant to this discussion.

Re: If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

#77

Post by xenonite »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #20
xenonite wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there are some with very small or very big hands. Would you give them a different hammer, or would you criticize their subpar performance?

I’d probably just pick a better analogy. If the job can be done on the operating system provided, then it can be done equally well by anybody using that operating system. No need to grow bigger hands.

The analogy is perfect in my opinion.

Like the body, everyone's brain is different.

Re: If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

#78

Post by mb_72 »

One place I worked - the main electricity supply and management company for a certain state and certain country - I didn't have admin rights to my own machine, and had to put in a (paper) request for any software that I needed to install to do my job (as the image started as the same image used by someone who would only need Word, email etc). I didn't know exactly what tools I needed, so it took - seriously! - some few weeks before I could actually do any work.

My job was supporting, enhancing and debugging internal tools used by engineers. Upon arrival I was handed a USB key with ZIP files of the source. There was no source control. I initiated a request and the political process necessary to 'allow' me to use source control and setup an SVN (this was quite a while ago) server. I quit in disgust a year later, and the first meeting to discuss whether I should be allowed to use SVN or not was scheduled for the day after my departure. My last work action there was to leave a note on my desk advising my replacement where the most recent ZIP files of source were stored.

None of the above was explained to me before I was employed, and I've since learned not to assume, and explicitly ask "Do you use source code control?" and other basic questions at interview / contract negotiation stages.

Re: If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

#79

Post by xenonite »

krapht wrote: post #21
xenonite wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then there are some with very small or very big hands. Would you give them a different hammer, or would you criticize their subpar performance?

I would ask what's going on that couldn't be solved with cygwin or virtual box.

This largely depends on the job. Some tasks can even be done with a locked down iPad, some not at all.

Re: If you're hiring, be forthcoming about the dev experience

#80

Post by rsify »

jaggederest wrote: post #75
rsify wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many IT people do you know that have quit after a month because of poor conditions? And how many do you know that suck it up and just stick to complaining about their job? Engineers don't want their time wasted, but companies have no benefit in trying to prevent it as far as I can see. What kind of brand image would they portray if they started saying how bad their tech stack is?

Well, every person I know who excels at their career can say "Wait, no, this was a bait and switch" and bow out gracefully in the first couple weeks and take one of their backup offers. I've also worked for extremely corporate companies, and a lot of the saner people backed away slowly during the interview process, but some people took a week or two at the company to register "yes it's really that bad" and bail.

Well senior engineers won't work at entry level positions, but medium skill ones might. Replace skill with working conditions and it'll be the same thing, people that have a lower tolerancy for working conditions will leave quickly, but some will stay and that's still a win for the company. Especially compared to advertising how corporate and annoying their processes are.
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