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An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

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Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#71

Post by matz1 »

harimau777 wrote: post #42
arcticbull wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really isn't a problem. So long as you can afford something where your basic needs are met: four walls, clean, safe, sturdy, etc, nobody's entitled to waterfront views. The idea is you create value through your work and utilize the proceeds to upgrade your residence, if that's what you value.

I agree that not everyone's entitled to waterfront views, but I think that in a functioning society everyone would be able to own a decent house (e.g. one that gets sunlight), within a reasonable commute of their work, in desirable part of the country (e.g. in a cosmopolitan city). The difficulty that I see is that housing prices in America are so high that it's unrealistic for moth people to create enough value to p…

Its debatable. Not everyone going to agree with your definition of decent.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#72

Post by bsanr2 »

adventured wrote: post #64
bsanr2 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This needs to be taken within the context of Japan hosting one of the largest economies in the world, despite being substantially smaller in population than countries with economies of comparable size; and also in that their real wage losses 1) pale in comparison to America's, and 2) mean that their real wages are still much higher than most of the world's. I've heard it put that Japan's economy makes it relatively e…

> despite being substantially smaller in population than countries with economies of comparable size Which countries would that be? There are very few with economies of comparable size. The next above Japan is nearly three times larger (China). Besides, it's super easy to avoid that GDP / population confusion by looking at GDP per capita. The US GDP per capita figure ($65,111) for 2019 was 59% higher than Japan ($40,…

Yes, China and the US, which are both substantially larger in population. Japan also outperforms most countries that outsize it in terms of population.

>Besides, it's super easy to avoid that GDP / population confusion by looking at GDP per capita.

Not so much. A high GDP per capita is a poor measure of the average person's economic wellbeing on its own. Looking at it within the context of measures of economic inequality helps to mitigate the misconceptions that could otherwise arise.

For example, according to this Wikipedia article and its cited sources [1], Japan's rich/poor 10% average income ratio is 4.5. Compare to America, whose 18.5 is much closer to China's 21.6, and far away from France's 9.1 and Germany's 6.9.

What this means is that America's GDP per capita is substantially more affected by the high incomes of the highest earners than Japan's. In other words, the average American sees less of the benefits of that high GDP per capita than the average Japanese sees of their somewhat lower GDP per capita.

That's just income. Japan's wealth GINI indicates substantially more equality in that regard than for America. [2]

>At the end of 2019, real US wages (both median and average) were at new all-time highs, according to the Federal Reserve.

I'd like to see that citation. It's well-known that most wages for Americans, indexed against GDP, have fallen or remained flat since the 70s. The vast majority of the income gains have accumulated in the hands of the upper 2 quintiles. This is especially troublesome for Americans as (re: the subject of this comment section) the housing situation in Japan differs greatly from America's skyrocketing housing values in major metro areas; medical insurance and care in America is substantially more expensive; and the cost and quality of education is higher and less stable, respectively, in America than in Japan. This is today, after our respective economic histories over the past few decades.

What your numbers suggest is that Japan was very wealthy for a limited period of time and is now regressing towards the mean that would be suggested by their population size and level of development. However, the character of their economic and institutional policy is making this decline smoother and more comfortable than anything we're likely to see. I continue to hold that this is preferable.

1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_... 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_eq...

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#73

Post by bane »

Decent family houses in Tokyo are definitely more expensive than this, but not hugely (also Kyoto surprisingly). There's some interesting things about the Japanese housing market, for example, many homes become "worthless" after the end of the mortgage -- so they depreciate and are more like buying cars.

Tokyo is also an absolutely enormous city with even more massive metro area. There's very few examples on the planet that come close. Tokyo is sometimes called "the infinite city" for good reason. This means that yes, you can pay huge money for a coffin in some areas, and little money for an entire house elsewhere in the same city. New York is kind of the same way in that respect, but is actually still smaller and less diverse.

I could write a ton more, but I think this series from "Life Where I'm From" which is pointed out in the article is a fantastic overview of housing for a nuclear family in Tokyo.

How an Average Family in Tokyo Can Buy a New Home - https://youtu.be/iGbC5j4pG9w

Brand New Japanese House Tour - https://youtu.be/Jv6SbFlZMbU

Are Japanese Homes Really Worthless After 30 Years? - https://youtu.be/1SiPGP_BDS4

Old Japanese Apartment vs. New House - https://youtu.be/SI3_PJoAa04

What a Very Old Japanese House is Like - https://youtu.be/r8zECc4JM1Y

Living in Traditional Japanese Townhouses: Kyo-machiya - https://youtu.be/NljSnaZ2WiY

Checking Out New Japanese House Design and Technology - https://youtu.be/5AiLSyNhEXg

I'd also point out this young couple who are expecting their first child (Paolo from Tokyo)

What a Japanese Moving Company in Tokyo is like - https://youtu.be/q0RX59G2jaA

$1500 Japanese Apartment Tour in Tokyo Shibuya - https://youtu.be/Qtc_zrpRIs8

Average Daily Living Cost in Tokyo Japan - https://youtu.be/xrgrBJc-64c

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#74

Post by dionidium »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #4

> The first thing to note is that in Japan, housing isn’t an investment. It’s a place to live. The country’s slow population growth means that increases in property values aren’t guaranteed I feel like this is a misleading way to put it. Japanese houses decrease in value, generally quite severely - the conventional wisdom is that after a few decades you might as well just tear it down and build a new one. So there's…

> Japanese houses decrease in value, generally quite severely

And why shouldn't they? What keeps housing prices high in the U.S. is artificial scarcity. It's the land that's valuable, not the out-of-date structures that exist on it. And the land is so valuable because it's illegal to build enough housing to meet demand in most places.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#76

Post by dionidium »

soared wrote: post #59

The cultural differences make this comparison less meaningful than you’d expect. In Japan you absolutely never have friends over to your house or apartment. Everyone meets at bars or restaurants. Similar to nyc, many apartments in Tokyo are a few hundred square feet and literally only serve as a place to sleep and shower. That means houses aren’t such a major thing and so the Japanese invest way less time and energy…

> The cultural differences make this comparison less meaningful than you’d expect

If these cultural differences are so strong, then surely a market that allows new construction in the U.S. will tend toward creating housing that meets those needs. If it doesn't, it's probably because people place more value on other things (e.g. proximity, price, etc).

The fact is that the market doesn't even get a chance to work itself out in the U.S. because cities encode a particular set of living preferences in law.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#77

Post by wenc »

lonelappde wrote: post #63
wenc wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> own a decent house (e.g. one that gets sunlight) I'm not sure this is that important a criterion for most people. Pre-lockdown, I'd leave the house before the sun came up, and got home barely in time to catch the sunset. If I wanted sunlight, I could walk a block in either direction. I actually have a preference for living in shadier (as in shade, not crime) parts of town, especially neighborhoods with tree-lined s…

Tree lined streets have a lot of sunlight.

Yes, but there's also just enough shade for things to not get too hot in the summer. It's like having a permanent dimmer on.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#78

Post by messick »

aidenn0 wrote: post #35
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get a large house that gets a lot of sun and is somewhat walkable / bikeable in Compton for $350k. With 20% down and all taxes & fees & insurance included, that's close to $1700/mo. In San Bernardino, you can get stuff for $250k, which about $1200/mo. You can get trailers in Riverside for $150k, which is about $730/mo.

Is that new construction like in TFA? $300k for new construction is ludicrously cheap for most coastal California cities. I was told to budget $150-250k for permits when I considered buying land and building my own house in Santa Barbara. Both my current and my previous house would be illegal to build today because they are too large (even though both houses comfortably fit the frontage requirements, there is an addi…

OP just pulled a part of the Los Angeles area out of their ass they figured was cheap because a rap song told them black lived there. $350k isn’t getting you something decent in any part of the city nor surrounding area.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#79

Post by EVdotIO »

wenc wrote: post #50
codesuki wrote: post #9

I think this headline is misleading in 2 ways. 1. yes you might get a house at this price but it's either 1-2 hours out of the city center (which is fine, just saying Tokyo is large.) Or alternatively it's in bad neighborhoods. (bad is relative if you are from the US) 2. your house will most likely look like this: https://www.ii-ie2.net/dat/5ba1164d.jpg Sayonara sunlight, hello neighbor. here are listings: https://ww…

> 2. your house will most likely look like this Not sure what's wrong with that? That looks pretty amazing actually. I live in a unit that looks similar to that near downtown Chicago. My unit is north facing, and even so, there's more than enough sunlight.

From a tiny studio in NYC I haven't really left in 2 months, it looks absolutely palatial.

Re: An average family in Tokyo can own a new house for $850/month

#80

Post by artificial »

axguscbklp wrote: post #56
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get a large house that gets a lot of sun and is somewhat walkable / bikeable in Compton for $350k. With 20% down and all taxes & fees & insurance included, that's close to $1700/mo. In San Bernardino, you can get stuff for $250k, which about $1200/mo. You can get trailers in Riverside for $150k, which is about $730/mo.

Are those neighborhoods safe, or are they the kind of places where you have to regularly worry that you might get physically assaulted?

I don’t think those places are the best. Everywhere has pockets of good and bad though.
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