Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005) • Hacker News Board

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#71

Post by rch » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 4:35 PM UTC

danohuiginn wrote: post #51

bartonfink wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate, doesn't that rest on the assumption that the top 1% of software developers are also strong enough networkers that they can get a job pretty much anywhere without using the formal channels which would require item (d)? I'm not at all convinced that's the case, even though I understand that there's some truth to the conclusion.

The point is that they don't need to be networkers, because they will be networkees. i.e. other people will notice how good they are, and actively try to get them into appropriate jobs. I think this is largely true, though it takes a while for reputation to spread. There are some brilliant young developers who haven't yet been noticed by anybody in a position to hire them -- but they won't stay in that situation more…

Individual talent is still evident on developer mailing lists, discussion groups, etc.

A quick example: http://9fans.net/archive/?q=rsc&go=Grep

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#72

Post by pasbesoin » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 4:57 PM UTC

danohuiginn wrote: post #51

bartonfink wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate, doesn't that rest on the assumption that the top 1% of software developers are also strong enough networkers that they can get a job pretty much anywhere without using the formal channels which would require item (d)? I'm not at all convinced that's the case, even though I understand that there's some truth to the conclusion.

The point is that they don't need to be networkers, because they will be networkees. i.e. other people will notice how good they are, and actively try to get them into appropriate jobs. I think this is largely true, though it takes a while for reputation to spread. There are some brilliant young developers who haven't yet been noticed by anybody in a position to hire them -- but they won't stay in that situation more…

A small thought/question: How do "we own all your IP" employment agreements influence and affect the power/mobility of such people?

I'm not arguing that they are a factor. Just asking -- in part, as a thought exercise.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#73

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 5:11 PM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #59

What I like about the concept of the mythical "top 1%" is that every company must hire only these cream-of-the-crop developers. It's quite presumptuous to believe that you could convince someone with a PhD in CS and probably at least a bachelors in Math to work on your web application. This is someone who could literally be considered in the top 1%: think Norvig, Sussman, etc. The truly great programmers who taught t…

[deleted]

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#74

Post by nopassrecover » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 5:21 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #26

nailer wrote: post #25

Last year I was interviewed by a company that frequently proclaims they hire the top 1% of candidates. The role was working on infrastructure apps using Python, as a Site Reliability Engineer... The interviewer proclaimed he knew Python. Later, during a programming question, after he didn't quite understand the code presented as an answer, I reconfirmed this. His response, quoting: 'I do know Python, but I'm not fami…

If you think you're hiring the top 1%, but you're not paying at top-1% levels, you're probably not actually hiring the top 1%. That's my main takeaway anyhow. Extraordinary people command extraordinary compensation - if you can't cough up the cash you're not going to get to play.

Unfortunately while low pay will rule out great programmers, great pay doesn't necessarily lead to great programmers, just people who can convince others they are great programmers.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#75

Post by caseysoftware » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 5:26 PM UTC

danohuiginn wrote: post #51

bartonfink wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate, doesn't that rest on the assumption that the top 1% of software developers are also strong enough networkers that they can get a job pretty much anywhere without using the formal channels which would require item (d)? I'm not at all convinced that's the case, even though I understand that there's some truth to the conclusion.

The point is that they don't need to be networkers, because they will be networkees. i.e. other people will notice how good they are, and actively try to get them into appropriate jobs. I think this is largely true, though it takes a while for reputation to spread. There are some brilliant young developers who haven't yet been noticed by anybody in a position to hire them -- but they won't stay in that situation more…

"The exception is somebody who is excellent, but stuck inside one company and not producing any publicly-available code. If she isn't actively promoting herself, it's possible nobody will ever notice her talent."

Their boss will.. and their coworkers (above and below) will. There have been a number of times that I've been asked for a recommendation and referred someone that was a past supervisor, team lead, etc.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#76

Post by krakensden » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 5:29 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #11

They only ever applied for one or two jobs in their lives. Does nobody work in high school or college anymore?

scholarships are pretty plentiful, if you're willing to do the application hustle.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#77

Post by kefeizhou » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 5:39 PM UTC

grammaton wrote: post #57

One assumption I never see questioned is the assumption that you actually need the top 1%. I would argue that in the vast majority of cases, you don't.

Top companies, especially in competitive industries like technology, need to constantly innovate and solve problems better and more efficiently than their competitors. And to do this they need those top 1% because problem solving skills and IQs are not completely stackable - the top 1% can solve problems that no teams of average developers can solve. Most companies need those top 1% if they want to keep up with the lead and not fall behind in the long run.

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#78

Post by didip » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 5:47 PM UTC

mooism2 wrote: post #31

potatolicious wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think you're hiring the top 1%, but you're not paying at top-1% levels, you're probably not actually hiring the top 1%. That's my main takeaway anyhow. Extraordinary people command extraordinary compensation - if you can't cough up the cash you're not going to get to play.

I'm not sure how true this is. Paying high wages to knowledge workers causes them in general to be less productive. The top 1% might rather go for the money anyway. But the top 1% also care about working conditions (more screen space, faster computers, fewer interruptions, etc). Perhaps more than money, after they're being paid enough not to have to worry about money.

Thought provoking video on what motivates highly skilled workers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#79

Post by forensic » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 5:50 PM UTC

grammaton wrote: post #57

One assumption I never see questioned is the assumption that you actually need the top 1%. I would argue that in the vast majority of cases, you don't.

Trying to get the top 1% to maintain your CRUD webapp is swatting a fly with a bazooka anyway

Re: Everyone thinks they're hiring the top 1% (2005)

#80

Post by nailer » Thu, Mar 03, 2011, 5:51 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #50

Tycho wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you say was the lower bound for the top 1% salary range?

If you are in London then you are competing for talent with the financial services industry which will pay senior devs 100k and up.

For those wanting specifics: for a mid-level Python gig at a large investment bank, base of 80K GBP, bonus between 20 and 40K GBP, expecting base to rise accordingly over successive years.

However expectation was 10 hour and 12 hour days, and work environment seemed, for want of a better term, hierarchically abusive.

Furthermore, anyone who's seriously good is contracting, which should net you around 5-600GBP/day.