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The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

jeanhsu.com

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Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit, I haven't read the entire checklist. When the first item on it is blatantly wrong, I kind of got turned off. Go read about the advantages women have in hiring in the sciences: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12062&page=R1 Anecdotally, women are also given advantages in big corporate IT, but I'm not aware of any studies. Corporations are generally loath to give away data on stuff like this, who know…

The list is a generalisation across all fields, so discounting it based on how something might not be true in your field is a bit short-sighted. #1 is true still for many fields. Of course, the link you provided wasn't for the general tech sector - it was specific to universities, which have other aspects in play. Even within the general tech sector, there are plenty of reports of questionable hiring practices. I've…

Which fields is #1 true for? Regardless, I'll assume you are right. Points 1-3 are irrelevant for the conversation we are having here (about women in tech), so I'll keep reading.

4) is a matter of whether you personally adopt a collectivist viewpoint or not. If women disproportionately adopt collectivist viewpoints, why is that anyone's fault besides their own?

5) is probably on point. 6) may be true in general, but (much like 1-3) it seems false in tech. Consider Leah Culver - "ooh, a girl that can program, and hot", as opposed to "meh, barely competent".

7-14) may be true, but are similarly irrelevant to a conversation about women in tech. Also, you still haven't explained how 14 is a "privilege". How does Obama's penis benefit me, relative to a woman?

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#72
Until recently, I've found that claims of sexism in software were strange (I'll share a story below to explain). If anything, I've generally found that men tend to be thrilled at having women working with them, and not for the seedy sort of ways that might be expected. Most of the male software engineers I've known honestly wonder why their field has so few women in it -- known that women are full and well as smart and capable as they. I've heard of no (until recently) cases of misconduct, or uncomfortable work environments -- on the contrary, I've usually heard that when a woman engineer claims that she'd like something to make her environment better, her management will bend over backwards to try and accommodate. I have heard of the usual pay issues and promotion problems. But in most cases it seems to just be a matter of not asking for them.

At any rate, the lack of representation of women in software is a huge problem in the field since it cuts off effectively half of the possible work force. More importantly, software that might better reach the female audience doesn't get written, services don't get created, etc.

Now the story.

My wife is a software engineer, her last job was a technical department head at a company with about 40% female software engineers. It wasn't super high-end work, but it provided services and data worth about $30-40million/yr to some very major institutions, so it had to be rock solid.

Her immediate boss was a woman, and 3 out of 4 department heads were women. Her boss's boss was a man.

Before that she worked for a $2billion dollar large company. In her department, there were about 30% female engineers (though in another technical department there were none, go fig). (her immediate super was a woman, but later changed to a man).

Before that she worked at an e-commerce company, of the engineering staff were women, her boss was a man, but his boss was a woman.

In every case they produced great, solid work, the companies were wildly profitable, her career progressed fantastically -- and she never complained about problems with sexism. Maybe she's been lucky, she never sought out these places, but that's where she ended up. (it could be that having so many women in the first placed altered the hiring dynamics so that they would tend to hire more women later)

Late last year, at the company she worked for, they brought in a new COO and within 4 months everything changed. Women managers were promoted up and over or moved laterally into diminished positions. Men with no engineering experience were brought in as department supervisors. My wife had her department entirely eliminated and her staff placed under all new male supervisors. One woman engineer was fired because she botched a minor product management job while a male engineer was promoted to department head right after complaints of rampant racism and sexism were formally filed against him.

My wife was devastated, she tried to stick it out, but the writing was on the wall and after a few miserable, tortuous months, I convinced her to resign. It was the first time she (or I for that matter) had seen or experienced such rampant and overt sexism.

Three months after she leaves we find out from her former colleagues that the COO was fired, and that 3 out of 4 major development projects have to be scrapped (at a total loss of $7-9 million) and the company is running in the red (in a recession proof industry).

If she had stayed her problems would now be over and she might have been able to work the problem to her advantage.

But, the good side is that she's now trying to startup her own company, brushing the dust off of long dormant engineering talents, and is happier than I've ever known her to be since she's doing her own thing and writing her own rules. Her job satisfaction appears to be off the charts and I don't think I've ever seen her work so hard.

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or worse, 90%+ of elementary school teachers are woman.

As far as I'm concerned this is a problem worse than the "no female engineers" problem. Little boys need role models and examples to grow into men. Even those with a good dad need them. And I bet that other teachers appreciate there being a man around, just as I have found that a workplace that includes women engineers is a much nicer place to work than one that doesn't.

It's not worse. It's not better. It's a different aspect of the same issue.

We only really develop a proper understanding of gender around the age of 7, but influences before then set up the mindstates to come, and help to drill everyone (including parents and teachers) in appropriate gender roles.

Kids see male doctors and female nurses. They have female teachers at school. When shopping for toys, the girls get pink kitchen sets and dolls, and the boys are offered machines and cars.

From a young age, our society teaches us that women are not engineers, and men are not teachers. We need to solve them both.

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#74
post #21

"You also get the added bonus of seeing people's confused reactions when they ask you if you're in marketing, and you tell them that you are a developer." This sentence really surprised me. How often does this happen? Female engineers are a minority, but I wouldn't have imagined it would be that big a deal to run into a female engineer.

In 14 years, this has never happened to me. Never in a corporate environment nor in a geek conference.

Frankly, everywhere I worked, be it a startup or a huge corporation, I never felt discrimination or disbelief at what I do. In the corporate world, particularly in finance and insurance, there are a lot of female developers. They're around 60% of the IT staff, from what I've personally seen in the places where I've consulted at. In the startup and more "geeky" environments, female devs are very rare. Currently I'm going on the theory that the type of person that seeks an IT job in the corporate world is different from the one that goes to startups. The degrees they have are subtly different (Business CS vs CS), their professional needs are different (stable long term employment with low risk, low % of innovation, high % of project/code maintenance in the corporate world). To me it seems obvious that there are many more women leaning towards the corporate profile than there are for the startup profile. Why this is, I'm still working on that.

Regardless of how many women there are, I have never witnessed the sort of disbelief that that phrase shows. I don't know why she says this happens, maybe it's a cultural thing where she's from.

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#75
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! I can't tell you how many people have tried to steer me away from development because I speak human AND code, and can actually make eye contact.

What's eye contact for, anyway? I can read body language reasonably well, but I always feel like people are expecting me to do something with my eyes and I can never tell what, exactly, I'm supposed to do with them.

Basically you're supposed to look at their eyes for 5-7 seconds at a go. Then look away but not at their chest (regardless of sex). Flick to something behind and above them, glance at a window or clock or other feature in the area.

If you don't like their eyes, focus on the bridge of their nose, they won't be able to tell the difference.

For neurotypicals, it creates sensations of companionship and trust, until it goes on too long and then it becomes creepy and uncomfortable for them.

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#76
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or worse, 90%+ of elementary school teachers are woman.

When I was an education major, to the extent that people commented on my gender, the comments were all positive—as a teacher I would be providing kids with a “male role model”, etc. (Of course, one of the reasons that I didn’t go on to a career in teaching is that the pay sucked. I believe that one of the reasons teachers’ pay sucks is that it’s a traditionally female occupation, and schools can recruit women who do…

" I believe that one of the reasons teachers’ pay sucks is that it’s a traditionally female occupation, and schools can recruit women who do not depend on their teaching salary for the majority of the family income."

I never really considered that. I always assumed the pay sucked because tons of people who don't have actual career passions decide to just be a teacher instead. It's like never having to leave school and get a real job! Boy, that's going to get me some flak, but I've seen it first hand plenty of times.

For evidence, my state (Connecticut) has one of the strictest set of teacher certification requirements in the country (being a teacher here basically makes you an automatic hire in most of the rest of the country). Yet, whenever there's a teacher job opening, it gets hundreds of applicants.

The teaching profession is definitely a buyers market, and I'd bet without unions teacher salaries could be halved and still never have vacancies. No, I'm not actually saying that would be a good thing. Education provided by the lowest bidder is an awful idea.

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#77
post #72

Until recently, I've found that claims of sexism in software were strange (I'll share a story below to explain). If anything, I've generally found that men tend to be thrilled at having women working with them, and not for the seedy sort of ways that might be expected. Most of the male software engineers I've known honestly wonder why their field has so few women in it -- known that women are full and well as smart a…

Yes, there is sexism. It exists everywhere, not confined to any particular profession. The company where she suffered that probably had women in totally different areas that also suffered from that. That is despicable, dishonest and repulsive. But it doesn't have much to do with the culture of software engineering itself, which on a technical level is very egalitarian in terms of really not caring whether you're male, female or a super intelligent shade of the color blue.

Regarding the part about being lucky at working in companies with a large % of women in It, there are a surprising number of women in engineering departments in large companies, especially when the companies are not actual software companies, they do business in other areas and have large IT departments to support the business internally. Because the culture in these is not really a startup culture, you really don't hear about most people in there. For the most part they aren't posting in HN or doing technical blogs or participating much in the "geek" community - and so this community doesn't actually realize they exist, and when people talk about the lack of women in IT, they're really talking about the lack of women in the open source and startup cultures.

In the end, it sounds like she had a really hard time, but she got out in time and in one piece, and she's more productive than ever, which is great. And good to hear that the COO got kicked out, it's good to know insanity doesn't go unnoticed forever. Thanks for sharing! Best of luck with the new startup!

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#78
post #31

> Less Drama A male developer saying that would _so_ not get away with it :P

When people ask me how it is to work in a male-dominated workplace, I always point out "no drama". I've gotten away with it so far. To contrast, my wife works in a female-dominated kindergarden. There's so much "did you see the way X Looked at me", "Y ran crying from the meeting", "Z said Good Morning to W, but did you hear the tone of her voice?" going on it's making my head spin. I also used to work in a logistic f…

Man and women both have dominance politics. Men do things like shake hands too firmly, stare at each other's eyes, stand while the other person is sitting, play basketball aggressively after work, wear elevator shoes, etc. Women do it in different ways: drama. It's really the same thing.

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#79
post #72

Until recently, I've found that claims of sexism in software were strange (I'll share a story below to explain). If anything, I've generally found that men tend to be thrilled at having women working with them, and not for the seedy sort of ways that might be expected. Most of the male software engineers I've known honestly wonder why their field has so few women in it -- known that women are full and well as smart a…

Fired for sexism? Or only because he was losing money?

Because if it was sexism, depending upon the state, the women in that company could own the company, after lawsuits.

Re: The Benefits of Being a Female Software Engineer

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is precisely why we need still more posts. You know why we don't need a "benefits of being a male software engineer" post? Because every day is a "benefits of being a male software engineer" day for male software engineers. You should probably have a read of http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ . As a rule when it comes to this sort of material, if it makes you feel uncomfortable and defens…

I admit, I haven't read the entire checklist. When the first item on it is blatantly wrong, I kind of got turned off. Go read about the advantages women have in hiring in the sciences: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12062&page=R1 Anecdotally, women are also given advantages in big corporate IT, but I'm not aware of any studies. Corporations are generally loath to give away data on stuff like this, who know…

Seems dated? Personally I call into question the masculinity of any guy that won't support his children, to the point of shunning one particular jerk for 10 years now.

Women get hired, promoted and paid better than men in certain jobs (enlisted military service, govt jobs) that they strangely don't want! So some of it is self-inflicted.

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