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Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

fold.it

71–80 of 85 posts

Re: Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand why people use this talking point. It's easy to say and the reasons why it's nonsense involve details. You can't compare life expectancy without accounting for cultural or geographic differences. The US has a higher rate of motor vehicle fatalities (as a result of driving more), more suicides and drug overdoses etc. These bring down life expectancy because they disproportionately impact the young. The US…

That's amazing how you seem to live in an happy imaginary world where everything is fine. There's not much to discuss when you're just making pretty stories to convince yourself. Good day.

Do you actually have a counterpoint? OP's argument is well-reasoned, is shared by others [1][2], and is also empirically supported by actual market events[3][4][5].

[1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-us-can-slash-health-ca...

[2] https://www.econtalk.org/keith-smith-on-free-market-health-c...

[3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-25/walmart-t...

[4] https://www.kansascity.com/news/business/health-care/article...

[5] https://kfor.com/news/okc-hospital-posting-surgery-prices-on...

Re: Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a big wall of text, with some nice ideas about how efficient markets are the solution to the problem, but you fail to realize that the US has a sub-par medical system (life expectancy is lagging quite far from most European countries) while being twice as costly as the OECD mean per capita.

I understand why people use this talking point. It's easy to say and the reasons why it's nonsense involve details. You can't compare life expectancy without accounting for cultural or geographic differences. The US has a higher rate of motor vehicle fatalities (as a result of driving more), more suicides and drug overdoses etc. These bring down life expectancy because they disproportionately impact the young. The US…

> The outcomes for US patients with health insurance are better than they are just about anywhere

How many people in the US lose their health insurance because of serious health issues e.g. lose their job, or run out of money for private insurance due to spiraling costs of dealing with a serious health problem? Or because they are old? Or because due to a slight health issue, confounding effects make it much less likely to have insurance? Or poor people have worse health and they can’t afford insurance?

Saying outcomes are better for those with insurance could very easily be due to other correlated causes, and not due to the healthcare system working well.

Re: Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

#73
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a profit motive is only a serious problem when there is insufficient competition. Otherwise companies that try to make outlandish profits would lose business to companies that offer better coverage for lower premiums by taking smaller profits. This works in an idealized free market. Health care is, for a variety of reasons, fundamentally incompatible with this, even if the powerful and wealthy interests with…

> This works in an idealized free market. It works in any kind of market that isn't a dumpster fire. The closer to idealized it is the better it works, but it still works in real markets that actually exist. The people who sell towels to Walmart are not an "idealized free market" but it's close enough for practical purposes. > Health care is, for a variety of reasons, fundamentally incompatible with this, even if the…

> The people who sell towels to Walmart are not an "idealized free market" but it's close enough for practical purposes.

Towels are a commodity: they're functional, fairly easy to produce, and differentiation is a pretty straightforward tradeoff of higher price for more luxury towels.

Health care is not a commodity. Different services are not interchangeable, and for anything more specialized than basic care, there may only be one provider within a reasonable distance of you that can offer it at all, let alone at an acceptable level of quality.

Furthermore, at the point of sale, much of the time, the "customer" is neither in a condition nor a position to be shopping around. Sometimes, they're literally unconscious. And while some elective procedures and preventative visits can be scheduled and planned, emergency care is by definition not something you can plan ahead for to determine where you can get the best value for your money.

None of these things are because of the specific sorry state of healthcare in the US. They are all fundamental to its very nature. It is impossible to have a truly free market for healthcare, because getting it is literally a matter of life and death for the patient in many cases, which means that by the economics of an unregulated market, the provider can charge them literally whatever they can afford to pay. Or more.

> Fixing that is hard because there are powerful interests behind the status quo, but the same interests are aligned against a single payer system. You can't use it as an argument against one and not the other.

Great, I completely agree.

So instead of trying to fight for a tiny baby step that will improve the system by 1%, let's fight the same people for single payer, a meaningful change that will improve the system by 1000x.

Re: Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

#74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's amazing how you seem to live in an happy imaginary world where everything is fine. There's not much to discuss when you're just making pretty stories to convince yourself. Good day.

Do you actually have a counterpoint? OP's argument is well-reasoned, is shared by others [1][2], and is also empirically supported by actual market events[3][4][5]. [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-us-can-slash-health-ca... [2] https://www.econtalk.org/keith-smith-on-free-market-health-c... [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-25/walmart-t... [4] https://www.kansascity.com/news/business/health…

[flagged]

Re: Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

#75
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually have a counterpoint? OP's argument is well-reasoned, is shared by others [1][2], and is also empirically supported by actual market events[3][4][5]. [1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-us-can-slash-health-ca... [2] https://www.econtalk.org/keith-smith-on-free-market-health-c... [3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-25/walmart-t... [4] https://www.kansascity.com/news/business/health…

[flagged]

Again, none of your responses are rich in substance, nor do they directly refute any of the arguments that have been carefully laid out. They’re just histrionic screeds.

Re: Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

#76
post #37

Strange site. The heading implies that they are attempting to design things that help science, but if you drill in to the pages for "new to fold.it" and FAQ, it never actually says that any of the results are used by anyone. Instead it says that it's all a game and the only science goal is to prove that humans are capable (just like computers) of doing this. I wonder if this is really all it is, or if the writers of…

It sounds like they don't really use it. Their about page says:

  We’re collecting data to find out if humans' pattern- 
 recognition and puzzle-solving abilities make them more 
  efficient than existing computer programs at pattern- 
 folding tasks. If this turns out to be true, we can then 
  teach human strategies to computers and fold proteins 
  faster than ever!

Indicating that at some point they may use it, though judging from recent trends in reinforcement learning, they probably won't.

Re: Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

#77
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Again, none of your responses are rich in substance, nor do they directly refute any of the arguments that have been carefully laid out. They’re just histrionic screeds.

You can't play in a team an pretend to be the referee, sorry.

Re: Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

#78
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This works in an idealized free market. It works in any kind of market that isn't a dumpster fire. The closer to idealized it is the better it works, but it still works in real markets that actually exist. The people who sell towels to Walmart are not an "idealized free market" but it's close enough for practical purposes. > Health care is, for a variety of reasons, fundamentally incompatible with this, even if the…

> The people who sell towels to Walmart are not an "idealized free market" but it's close enough for practical purposes. Towels are a commodity: they're functional, fairly easy to produce, and differentiation is a pretty straightforward tradeoff of higher price for more luxury towels. Health care is not a commodity. Different services are not interchangeable, and for anything more specialized than basic care, there m…

> Health care is not a commodity. Different services are not interchangeable, and for anything more specialized than basic care, there may only be one provider within a reasonable distance of you that can offer it at all, let alone at an acceptable level of quality.

In what way is it not a commodity? Does the medical practice in the next town over not have an X-ray machine or an operating room or whatever it is that you need? There are very few procedures that can only be done by one provider in the world.

Reasonable distance is also related to price. If the local provider is asking $10,000 then a $300 plane ticket to use a provider that charges a quarter of the price is completely reasonable. Which, if we had meaningful price transparency, would then prevent the local provider from charging $10,000 to begin with or else nearly everybody would know to buy the plane ticket and they would have no patients.

> Furthermore, at the point of sale, much of the time, the "customer" is neither in a condition nor a position to be shopping around. Sometimes, they're literally unconscious. And while some elective procedures and preventative visits can be scheduled and planned, emergency care is by definition not something you can plan ahead for to determine where you can get the best value for your money.

So have your city provide emergency rooms the same way they provide fire departments. What does that have to do with the majority of medical care which is not done on an emergency basis?

> It is impossible to have a truly free market for healthcare, because getting it is literally a matter of life and death for the patient in many cases, which means that by the economics of an unregulated market, the provider can charge them literally whatever they can afford to pay.

Being a matter of life and death doesn't break markets in any way. Markets operate through competition. It may be worth a million dollars to you to save your life, but if it only costs $200 then providers will be lining up to charge $250 and make $50.

Food is a matter of life and death too. Does that mean we should have socialized farming?

> So instead of trying to fight for a tiny baby step that will improve the system by 1%, let's fight the same people for single payer, a meaningful change that will improve the system by 1000x.

Because you can get a lot more than 1% improvement from things like price transparency or addressing existing constraints on the number of new doctors, which are easier to pass because for each one you only have to fight 10% of the incumbent apparatus instead of the whole thing aligned together.

Also because single payer doesn't actually solve problems by magic, so you still have to solve each of the individual problems anyway. If the FDA approval process continues to be very expensive and thereby causes drugs to only come to market when they're expected to be very profitable, how is single payer supposed to reduce drug prices without reducing the number of new drugs? How does it address the de facto limits on the number of new doctors? They're still independent problems.

Re: Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

#79
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand why people use this talking point. It's easy to say and the reasons why it's nonsense involve details. You can't compare life expectancy without accounting for cultural or geographic differences. The US has a higher rate of motor vehicle fatalities (as a result of driving more), more suicides and drug overdoses etc. These bring down life expectancy because they disproportionately impact the young. The US…

> The outcomes for US patients with health insurance are better than they are just about anywhere How many people in the US lose their health insurance because of serious health issues e.g. lose their job, or run out of money for private insurance due to spiraling costs of dealing with a serious health problem? Or because they are old? Or because due to a slight health issue, confounding effects make it much less lik…

So cultural differences like substance abuse and suicide between the US and Europe explain nothing there, but cultural differences between people with and without health insurance in the US explain everything?

You're basically making the opposite point. Maybe people also live longer in Europe because they have more of a safety net (and therefore less severe poverty) in general, and so what the US really needs is a UBI rather than single payer.

Re: Coronavirus Spike Protein Binder Design

#80
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public health systems, well-funded or not, are not a cure-all. I'd be curious to hear if you have any examples - if anything, they are reliant on research funded by the huge amount of money sloshing around the US healthcare system. Given a fixed annual budget, a public health system essentially has to decide what "healthy" or "cured" means, and set some quality of life to cost of treatment ratio. Some examples: my da…

I’m sorry to hear about your wife’s friend. But both examples you gave (people having to fight for further diagnoses of outside-case health problems) are really common with private healthcare in the United States too - we’ve just shifted the burden of cost of treatment/quality of life decisions to private entities who typically are only interested in furthering shareholder value. To give a personal anecdote as well:…

In the UK there is the Wellcome Trust [0] which is a non profit healthcare research body, and I believe other organisations like this exist. They would seem to be the ideal place for this type of work?

0. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellcome_Trust

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