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What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

people.howstuffworks.com

71–80 of 93 posts

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#71
post #27

The US federal government has an exact, real-time count and location of every single person with a phone in the country due to universal bulk surveillance. Cross-referenced with the subscriber records from wireless, cable, and utility companies, databases from data brokers that are fed by loyalty programs and supermarkets, and every bank or credit card swipe in real-time, they already have 100% of this data in far hi…

> I will be ignoring the effort.

Then you do so to the detriment of your state. Regardless of whether or not the government has the information via the means you describe, House and budget apportionment is determined by the census numbers, and not this "shadow data".

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#72
post #52
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not filling out the census form may cost you something in the long run. On the average each uncounted person loses their district $2,000 per year in federal payments (i.e. tax money returning to the district). Losing $20,000 over the ten years between censuses is a big deal for school and other program funding. PLEASE BE COUNTED!

Got a citation for that? You're suggesting $600B+ is allocated by the federal government based on census numbers?

The article links to this other article, https://people.howstuffworks.com/census.htm, which states:

> Every year, federal and state governments use census data to allocate more than $675 billion toward public services and infrastructure [source: U.S. Census Bureau].

The link is to https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizat....

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#73

Nothing. Nothing happens. You may get an in-person visit, and if you blow them off, nothing also happens. As with voting, it only encourages them. They are passionate about getting you to participate because they want the appearance of legitimacy, so you get obvious fear-and-guilt-prop like this.

> Nothing. Nothing happens. Except for your area getting federally undercounted, which loses representation and tax dollars for you and all your neighbors.

Is there any reason to believe that more people are failing to fill out the census in my area than in other areas? Because if the failure rate is about the same everywhere it probably does make little difference.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#74
post #27

The US federal government has an exact, real-time count and location of every single person with a phone in the country due to universal bulk surveillance. Cross-referenced with the subscriber records from wireless, cable, and utility companies, databases from data brokers that are fed by loyalty programs and supermarkets, and every bank or credit card swipe in real-time, they already have 100% of this data in far hi…

I have 6 phones. Am I 6 people?

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#75
post #27

The US federal government has an exact, real-time count and location of every single person with a phone in the country due to universal bulk surveillance. Cross-referenced with the subscriber records from wireless, cable, and utility companies, databases from data brokers that are fed by loyalty programs and supermarkets, and every bank or credit card swipe in real-time, they already have 100% of this data in far hi…

I think my cell phone setup throws a bit of a wrench in the tracking glue. I use a sim card from China with an account that's not in my name. While I've got a China bank account with Wechat pay connected to it, so I can just hit a button and reload it with funds each month. I can make all the phone calls I need while roaming in the USA and also use a reasonable amount of data, it still only costs me about $60 bucks per month max. I don't lose any sleep over anyone tracking my cell phone. For a USA number, I use skype with VPN.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population counts are released yearly and I believe you can do what is the Turkish version of FOIA request to get the live count, though don’t quote me on the latter part. Turkey has a central database, called TCKN, that everyone is assigned by birth or by getting an immigration visa. The births and deaths are tracked by hospitals and the Revenue Service. Income / education / housing - all of these are tracked by…

Turkey has at least two ... porous ... borders that I've seen in action, so I am doubtful that counting births and immigration visas can provide an accurate real-time count of every person in the country.

Which borders?

I think the border to Syria was at one point fairly porous, for humanitarian reasons, but as of now even that is sealed shut pretty tightly. It's actually third largest border wall in the world after Great Wall of China and US - Mexico one. [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria–Turkey_barrier

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#77
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population counts are released yearly and I believe you can do what is the Turkish version of FOIA request to get the live count, though don’t quote me on the latter part. Turkey has a central database, called TCKN, that everyone is assigned by birth or by getting an immigration visa. The births and deaths are tracked by hospitals and the Revenue Service. Income / education / housing - all of these are tracked by…

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I remain skeptical that an accurate detailed count can be automated (at this point in history) but I won’t claim to have any insight about contemporary life and society in Turkey.

I think you are right to be skeptical and I don't claim to have an insight into how accurate it is. However, mind that while Turkey is culturally about 80% western and 20% non-western, it's really unpredictable where that 20% shows up. For example, the reason the census count can be reasonably accurate even in the adversity of undocumented immigrants is that Turkish police can walk up to anybody they see as suspicious on the street and ask for their TCKN / ID to do a spot check for arrest warrants — decidedly free of the need for the western concept of a 'probable cause' or anything like that, it's a member of your community asking to validate your ID. Since they have the readers attached to their mobile phones, the check takes a couple seconds.

This also, by design, makes it really hard to be undocumented in Turkey. There's a significant skin tone difference between people from the Middle East and those in Istanbul, and the police does absolutely use this to be more scrutinous if you're even just walking by them. From an US perspective this is discrimination, and it definitely is, but this is how it works — and they're pretty good at spotting non-Turkish people. As a real example in action, there was a recent directive that required refugees to keep their residences within the borders of the first municipality they registered in (many of the Syrian refugees had moved to Istanbul from where they first registered for benefits), and the police managed to significantly clamp down on unregistered immigrants fairly quickly and send them back to the cities they registered to.

In this specific case this was the right move since the resources are allocated to states (ils) based on where refugees are registered and Istanbul alone does not have nearly the capacity to house that many refugees. My point is that Turkish police does have a lot more leeway than the US police before it becomes socially unacceptable — and while this is overall not a great thing (loose oversight), it also makes them much more effective at making a census in the right ballpark.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#78
post #55

The US census was infamously used to assist in rounding up Americans of specific ethnic backgrounds for concentration camps. It would go a long way to easing people’s minds if they had some way to guarantee that this could not happen again. I realize there is value in gathering attributes beyond just “one person”, but storing these attributes in a way that can be connected to addresses seems seriously problematic.

France had the same issue with Jews being rounded up during Nazi occupation with help from government data, their answer was to no longer collect data on ethnicity.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#79
post #55

The US census was infamously used to assist in rounding up Americans of specific ethnic backgrounds for concentration camps. It would go a long way to easing people’s minds if they had some way to guarantee that this could not happen again. I realize there is value in gathering attributes beyond just “one person”, but storing these attributes in a way that can be connected to addresses seems seriously problematic.

I agree that the data should be treated anonymously and confidentially, with severe punishment to abuses.

Would the lack of census data prevented the concentration camps from operating? It may have instead taken longer and required more people, but I would expect that at the time anyone with a Japanese/Chinese look or name to have been detained anyway. Side note: It seems even the 2nd amendment didn’t help citizens resist agains oppression.

I suspect these days the government has enough information already on its citizens through other means (intelligence agencies etc) than the census, to still target based on race if they wanted to.

Immediately after 9-11 the discrimination against Muslim, Arabic and other minorities was rather pronounced. No census data needed to that either. People just judged by visual appearance or name.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#80
Next national census in Poland happens in 2021 and also here, you can be fined or sent to prison, get non-custodial sentence by not participating or providing false answers; persons covered by census are obliged to participate. Those who by gathering answers for census surveys and processing data will gain any profits can be imprisoned for up to 5 years.

So far no one from my family was chosen; since fall of the Eastern bloc there were 2 censuses, in 2002 and 2011

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