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Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

greece.greekreporter.com

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Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#71

Post by lucianoq »

tasubotadas wrote: post #52
lucianoq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retirement age in Greece is today and was in 2011 higher than in Germany. Using some anecdotes and guess for aggregate data is bad induction. "privatize" means that today all the Greek airports are owned by German companies. Is it legit to suppose there was a slight conflict of interest between the "doctor" and the "patient"? I mean, would you trust your doctor if he gains on your death?

Really? "Like many EU countries, the general retirement age in Greece is 65, although the actual average is about 61. However, the deeply fragmented system also provides for early retirement – as early as 55 for men and 50 for women – in many professions classified as unhealthy." 55 and 50! https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-to-ca...

Average in 2011 was 61,9 yo for Greece and 61,5 yo for Germany. This is an average between all the jobs, classified unhealthy and not.

But although it was less than Germany, let's say 60 or 59 or even 55:

1) lenders knew it, so it's also their fault on not weighting the risk well or not asking for an higher interest rate or avoiding giving them money at all. To check is their responsibility.

2) IMF decisions brought an increase in suicide rate and children mortality rate. Are the lenders allowed to bring death to the borrowers? Is this illegal for the mafia but allowed for IMF/ECB/EC?

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#72

Post by leto_ii »

smallnamespace wrote: post #62
lucianoq wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. They are deciding about life and death of people of a country (or many). They're not discussing about what's your favourite food and which sex position you like the most. Those conversation MUST be open and public, so people can judge the work of their delegates and decide to vote them again or not. If you don't want to be heard, don't…

On the other hand, organizations that are able to keep their internal deliberations private have a strong advantage over ones who must ‘think’ openly. Imagine negotiating with an employer, except your inner monologue is always spoken aloud. One unintended (?) consequence of extreme transparency for governments, is that it makes government ineffective and easily subverted or outmaneuvered by opaque organizations, like…

> On the other hand, organizations that are able to keep their internal deliberations private have a strong advantage over ones who must ‘think’ openly.

I agree, but an advantage over whom exactly? In this case it's simply an advantage of the ruling political and economic elite over European citizens (Greeks especially).

There are few instances when things really should be kept secret e.g. during wars, but this was not one of them.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#73

Post by 317070 »

mrtksn wrote: post #61
lucianoq wrote: post #40

To the people who think Greece deserved that: lender is responsible for checking how much the borrower can take. My bank reasonably doesn't give me a billion. Default likelihood exists because there is an interest that prices it. When default happens, shame on the borrower and shame on the lender for having been a bad checker or just shame on no one if that default was one of the "expected" and covered by all the deb…

So you argue that it is O.K. to game the bank and live a lavish life destroying your own way of living and if the bank catches up and wants you to take measures so you can pay back, the right thing to do would be to jail the people who were gamed or conspired with the people who gamed the bank and simply continue the lavish life and let the people who dod not manage to game the bank(some richer and some poorer than y…

I think you do get this correct. It is the bank's responsibility to assign its loans properly. That's the risk they take and why they get to collect an interest. Maybe watch this video of David Graeber from start until 5:20, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZIINXhGDcs He makes the point more clearly.

I mean, do I get this correct? Would you say that when people need to pay their debts, the bank gets to enforce measures despite it causing the debtor's children dying (i.e. increased child mortality)?

I might have gotten you wrong here. It is not easy to parse a 100+ word sentence.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#74

Post by cafard »

tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

In Harold Nicholson's lectures on diplomacy, he mentions Woodrow Wilson's advocacy of open diplomacy. At Versailles, Nicholson was amused to find that the Wilson's discussions took place in a room that had a U.S. Marine with fixed bayonet patrolling outside the windows.

Nicholson makes the point that the text of agreements should be known when they are made. The discussions that arrive at them, not necessarily.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#75

Post by black_puppydog »

smallnamespace wrote: post #62
lucianoq wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. They are deciding about life and death of people of a country (or many). They're not discussing about what's your favourite food and which sex position you like the most. Those conversation MUST be open and public, so people can judge the work of their delegates and decide to vote them again or not. If you don't want to be heard, don't…

On the other hand, organizations that are able to keep their internal deliberations private have a strong advantage over ones who must ‘think’ openly. Imagine negotiating with an employer, except your inner monologue is always spoken aloud. One unintended (?) consequence of extreme transparency for governments, is that it makes government ineffective and easily subverted or outmaneuvered by opaque organizations, like…

Except that in the case of politics, the "out group" who that information is kept from are the people being governed. And do you want politics to have a "strong advantage" over it's citizens?

By the way, this goes hand in hand with the encroachment on ordinary citizens' rights (often with exceptions being carved out specifically for parliamentarians).

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#76

Post by petermcneeley »

This is about "elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy" It reflects the anti democratic perspective of the Eurogroup and is one of the most fundamental political issues of our times.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/markcarrigan.net/2017/05/08/ele...

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#77

Post by tsimionescu »

mrtksn wrote: post #61
lucianoq wrote: post #40

To the people who think Greece deserved that: lender is responsible for checking how much the borrower can take. My bank reasonably doesn't give me a billion. Default likelihood exists because there is an interest that prices it. When default happens, shame on the borrower and shame on the lender for having been a bad checker or just shame on no one if that default was one of the "expected" and covered by all the deb…

So you argue that it is O.K. to game the bank and live a lavish life destroying your own way of living and if the bank catches up and wants you to take measures so you can pay back, the right thing to do would be to jail the people who were gamed or conspired with the people who gamed the bank and simply continue the lavish life and let the people who dod not manage to game the bank(some richer and some poorer than y…

No. The point you are missing is that it is also not ok for the lender to lend everyone a billion dollars, wait for people to default, and then go ask the government to give them a billion dollars back because otherwise they will go bankrupt.

If the supply of money has essentially been exhausted, then both borrowers and lenders have been doing something wrong, and it should be BOTH that suffer, so that both are incentivized not to resch this point again. What happened in Greece instead was that only the borrowers suffered, the lenders got all their money back.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#78

Post by marksweston »

lucianoq wrote: post #40

To the people who think Greece deserved that: lender is responsible for checking how much the borrower can take. My bank reasonably doesn't give me a billion. Default likelihood exists because there is an interest that prices it. When default happens, shame on the borrower and shame on the lender for having been a bad checker or just shame on no one if that default was one of the "expected" and covered by all the deb…

In as much as this analogy is useful: when you lie to the lender about your income, spending and ability to repay the loan, you have committed fraud.

But the EU is supposed to be an a collective of allies and partners, not a network of purely financial transactions. In that context surely the shame belongs to the partner that betrays the trust and confidence of its friends?

Not that I'd argue that Greece "deserved" everything that happened. But this line of argument seems to justify a complete refusal of responsibility on Greece's part.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#79

Post by antr »

lucianoq wrote: post #58
tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

> People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. They are deciding about life and death of people of a country (or many). They're not discussing about what's your favourite food and which sex position you like the most. Those conversation MUST be open and public, so people can judge the work of their delegates and decide to vote them again or not. If you don't want to be heard, don't…

It's the Greek politicians who put the country in a life or death situation. Greece has had +100% of debt to GDP for decades, spending that debt on god knows what.

It's 2012-2015, Greece is about to default on that very debt, and asks responsible countries to guarantee Greek debt... and they want the Eurogroup to guarantee it because they want to issue more debt! Issue more debt! A country that is unable to repay it's current debt!

Varoufakis, playing with people's lives and futures...

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#80

Post by mrtksn »

317070 wrote: post #73
mrtksn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you argue that it is O.K. to game the bank and live a lavish life destroying your own way of living and if the bank catches up and wants you to take measures so you can pay back, the right thing to do would be to jail the people who were gamed or conspired with the people who gamed the bank and simply continue the lavish life and let the people who dod not manage to game the bank(some richer and some poorer than y…

I think you do get this correct. It is the bank's responsibility to assign its loans properly. That's the risk they take and why they get to collect an interest. Maybe watch this video of David Graeber from start until 5:20, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZIINXhGDcs He makes the point more clearly. I mean, do I get this correct? Would you say that when people need to pay their debts, the bank gets to enforce measur…

There are numerous studies about the positive effects of being rich and have the easy life, including studies showing that the richer you are the lesser child mortality you get.

You can argue that if that money was not given in first place is just as bad as asking it back.

I am sure the poorer EU countries would also lower their mortality rates if they were given the free check. What's special about Greece, why Romanians can't lower their mortality rates by living a good life on credit? Why the UK can't do that?

They both have higher child mortality rates than Greece: https://www.ined.fr/en/everything_about_population/data/euro...

Are they not clever enough? Not important enough? What's going on here?

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