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Windows 10 to offer Paint and WordPad as optional features

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Re: Windows 10 to offer Paint and WordPad as optional features

#71

Post by binarycrusader »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #67
binarycrusader wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It removes a copy. There's still another one in the installation archive. If you have your system set to CompactOS mode, which you would presumably do if you were worried about space, I think it really would just be removing a link. This is not true in this case and is probably due to some interpretation of how packages are installed in Desktop editions of Windows. In Desktop editions of Windows, many OS files (not a…

Oh. So it really will save space, but as a FOD you won't be able to install notepad offline . (On a system by itself.) I find that worse. > Choices of which product features are supported are orthogonal to the Features On Demand platform technology. On a technical level they're separate. But on a "we're trying to deprioritize this to get people off of it" level, they're both worth considering.

Oh. So it really will save space, but as a FOD you won't be able to install notepad offline. (On a system by itself.) I find that worse.

Not strictly speaking true. You can always provide the cab files for the feature via some other means and still install them using the dism command.

Note also that this makes the feature removable it does not necessarily mean it won’t be preinstalled.

Regardless this is no different than a typical Linux system where you can remove and add packages as desired.

Re: Windows 10 to offer Paint and WordPad as optional features

#72

Post by Dylan16807 »

binarycrusader wrote: post #71
Dylan16807 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh. So it really will save space, but as a FOD you won't be able to install notepad offline . (On a system by itself.) I find that worse. > Choices of which product features are supported are orthogonal to the Features On Demand platform technology. On a technical level they're separate. But on a "we're trying to deprioritize this to get people off of it" level, they're both worth considering.

Oh. So it really will save space, but as a FOD you won't be able to install notepad offline. (On a system by itself.) I find that worse. Not strictly speaking true. You can always provide the cab files for the feature via some other means and still install them using the dism command. Note also that this makes the feature removable it does not necessarily mean it won’t be preinstalled. Regardless this is no different…

> provide the cab files for the feature via some other means

That's why I said 'by itself'.

> Regardless this is no different than a typical Linux system where you can remove and add packages as desired.

The minimal actual-machine install of a Linux distro pretty much always has a text editor, doesn't it? You'd have to be at sub-busybox levels of features to lack that.

To some extent you can remove everything but the package installer but that's not exactly a supported configuration.

Re: Windows 10 to offer Paint and WordPad as optional features

#73

Post by binarycrusader »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #72
binarycrusader wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh. So it really will save space, but as a FOD you won't be able to install notepad offline. (On a system by itself.) I find that worse. Not strictly speaking true. You can always provide the cab files for the feature via some other means and still install them using the dism command. Note also that this makes the feature removable it does not necessarily mean it won’t be preinstalled. Regardless this is no different…

> provide the cab files for the feature via some other means That's why I said 'by itself'. > Regardless this is no different than a typical Linux system where you can remove and add packages as desired. The minimal actual-machine install of a Linux distro pretty much always has a text editor, doesn't it? You'd have to be at sub-busybox levels of features to lack that. To some extent you can remove everything but the…

The minimal actual-machine install of a Linux distro pretty much always has a text editor, doesn't it? You'd have to be at sub-busybox levels of features to lack that.

While it’s true that most will have it by default my point is that you can remove them and it is supported. Some Linux distros still expose this directly in their installers.

To some extent you can remove everything but the package installer but that's not exactly a supported configuration.

Sure it is. Ultimately I’m not sure what you’re driving at. This technology is about making things removable and that is a good thing. The choice is in the hands of the customer.

Re: Windows 10 to offer Paint and WordPad as optional features

#74

Post by acollins1331 »

leeoniya wrote: post #53
smacktoward wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would prefer https://www.getpaint.net , if that web site weren't littered with misleading ad units designed to trick people who want to download the Paint.NET software into actually downloading adware. As it stands, I can't in good conscience tell people to go to that site. Even if the actual Paint.NET software is good, the risk is just too high they'll end up installing something nasty.

yeah, it's unfortunate, but they need to make money somehow. at least they're not bundling anything with the install (AFAIK) https://www.dotpdn.com/downloads/pdn.html

I don't think the answer of "I need to make money somehow" and then maliciously taking it from others makes it okay. That's like saying it's ok I mug someone because I need some money. Intrusive and tracking ads are bad, even if the person hosting them "needs money".

Re: Windows 10 to offer Paint and WordPad as optional features

#75

Post by Dylan16807 »

binarycrusader wrote: post #73
Dylan16807 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> provide the cab files for the feature via some other means That's why I said 'by itself'. > Regardless this is no different than a typical Linux system where you can remove and add packages as desired. The minimal actual-machine install of a Linux distro pretty much always has a text editor, doesn't it? You'd have to be at sub-busybox levels of features to lack that. To some extent you can remove everything but the…

The minimal actual-machine install of a Linux distro pretty much always has a text editor, doesn't it? You'd have to be at sub-busybox levels of features to lack that. While it’s true that most will have it by default my point is that you can remove them and it is supported. Some Linux distros still expose this directly in their installers. To some extent you can remove everything but the package installer but that's…

> Ultimately I’m not sure what you’re driving at.

You could already remove notepad if you really really wanted to. Encouraging it has upsides and downsides, and I am very far from convinces that the upsides outweigh the downsides.

I guess my point is that it is not purely positive, so listing a very tiny positive is not enough to make this a good feature.

Especially if you follow the rule of thumb that every feature starts at negative one hundred points, because extra complexity has to be earned.

Re: Windows 10 to offer Paint and WordPad as optional features

#76

Post by binarycrusader »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #75
binarycrusader wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The minimal actual-machine install of a Linux distro pretty much always has a text editor, doesn't it? You'd have to be at sub-busybox levels of features to lack that. While it’s true that most will have it by default my point is that you can remove them and it is supported. Some Linux distros still expose this directly in their installers. To some extent you can remove everything but the package installer but that's…

> Ultimately I’m not sure what you’re driving at. You could already remove notepad if you really really wanted to. Encouraging it has upsides and downsides, and I am very far from convinces that the upsides outweigh the downsides. I guess my point is that it is not purely positive, so listing a very tiny positive is not enough to make this a good feature. Especially if you follow the rule of thumb that every feature…

You could already remove notepad if you really really wanted to.

Not in a supported fashion, and the OS would see it as corruption and automatically "repair" it by adding back the missing files.

I guess my point is that it is not purely positive, so listing a very tiny positive is not enough to make this a good feature.

Let's agree that whether it is positive or negative varies with the perspective and environment in which the system is used.

For me personally, this is a good thing no matter how I look at it.

Especially if you follow the rule of thumb that every feature starts at negative one hundred points, because extra complexity has to be earned.

The Features on Demand technology already existed, it's just now being used for more things.

Re: Windows 10 to offer Paint and WordPad as optional features

#77

Post by Jedd »

> As you can see in the above screenshot, a system reboot is required to uninstall Paint and WordPad.

This is spectacular, and I'm consumed with curiosity wrt what's going on under the hood when you remove these two programmes.

More than just changes to file associations, natch.

Along with:

> The size of Microsoft Paint is 6.68 MB and WordPad occupies 6.25 MB ...

... and my curiosity extends to what kind of non-enterprise user (ie. someone who has to attend to this step manually) would bother.

Re: Windows 10 to offer Paint and WordPad as optional features

#78

Post by xeeeeeeeeeeenu »

Pxtl wrote: post #38
Someone1234 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only Paint 3D wasn't a buggy convoluted mess. Paint, to me, is like Notepad. A very low level tool to accomplish basic image manipulation, like Notepad is a low level tool to accomplish basic text manipulation. I never see either tool going away. I have better tools installed (e.g. Paint.Net) but still go to Paint for basic image manipulation/cropping, because it is fast/simple.

I just wish Notepad would get those minimal quality-of-life features that are expected from even the most basic text editors. Like wrap-around search - every time I open a logfile in notepad, the lack of basic wrap-around search bites me.

They added it in Windows 10 1809.

Re: Windows 10 to offer Paint and WordPad as optional features

#80

Post by cm2187 »

seieste wrote: post #79

My predictions Sometime within the next 2 years, Microsoft will release Word3D, which will be a text editor written in Electron and which will consume 100MB of memory to edit a 1KB text file.

And will reset your default application settings on every update to shove that monstrosity down your throat.
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