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Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

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71–80 of 197 posts

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#71

A valuable part of the ADS-B out mandate is that planes even as small as mine (a.k.a. tiny) can cheaply (<200$US) pick up ADS-B in and display it on a consumer tablet. My private airplanes now have pseudo radar. Not every airplane in the air is broadcasting, but most are. This is a huge safety win. Almost without exception I'll see airplanes on my tablet long before I have visual on them.

Linkage to what is most likely being referenced here, for the curious: http://stratux.me/

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#72
When the Kessler syndrome occurs, all transportation will grind to a halt.

The Kessler syndrome is when collisions between objects cause a cascade in which each collision generates space debris that increases the likelihood of further collisions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#73
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won’t they have to before takeoff? Or will that not be a requirement?

Drug smuggling planes might not be in full compliance with every single regulation.

It will probably be easier to spot them, since very few planes will show up on radar and not on the GPS system. It might be enough to go take a visual immediately once this is fully online.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#74
Regarding posts about spoofing and maintaining radar, it was my understanding that the radar sets that most ATCs used was not actually powerful enough to get direct returns from commercial aircraft, and relied on amplifying transponders to be able to see them. Supposedly only militaries operate radars powerful enough to see aircraft directly. Can anyone who knows more confirm or deny? If that's true, I guess we're already in a world were ATC info could be spoofed.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#75

When the Kessler syndrome occurs, all transportation will grind to a halt. The Kessler syndrome is when collisions between objects cause a cascade in which each collision generates space debris that increases the likelihood of further collisions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

GPS satellites are in geosynchronous orbit, far above any threat of Kessler syndrome and we won't have nearly enough material in orbit that occlusion of the satellites would become a problem for centuries, if ever.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#76

A lot of comments seem to be about spoofing. Remember that there are multiple humans in the loop -- experienced pilots and experienced air traffic controllers -- and multiple levels of redundancy. Pilots have access to barometric altitude, radar altitude, traditional VHF navaids, TCAS-issued resolution advisories (based on directional antennas, not GPS)... in addition to GPS. Air traffic controllers have primary rada…

> buying an aviation radio off the shelf and just chatting on the frequency or issuing fake clearances if you want to be a mass murderer

Incidentally, I am happily surprised that that never seems to happen. One could so easily create so much chaos at an airport... There is no authentication whatsoever.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#77

I worked for a firm, which studied satellite navigation and implementation for air traffic control, guidance, safety, and ILS. I don't think that will ever happen. There are huge gaping issues with GPS, both WAAS and GBAS. It's very unreliable, especially in bad weather. The old-school RF tower and ILS, which used Carrier frequency pairings by the runway, are way more reliable and propagate bad weather while guiding…

> Even the GPS signal itself has latency and lag

What do you mean by this? You sound pretty knowledgeable, so you must know that it's simply not possible for the GPS signal to have latency or lag.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#78

When the Kessler syndrome occurs, all transportation will grind to a halt. The Kessler syndrome is when collisions between objects cause a cascade in which each collision generates space debris that increases the likelihood of further collisions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

GPS satellites are in geosynchronous orbit, far above any threat of Kessler syndrome and we won't have nearly enough material in orbit that occlusion of the satellites would become a problem for centuries, if ever.

If there's ever a hot world war again, all global navigation constellations are going to be destroyed with ASAT missiles in the first hour of it.

There's a legitimate concern that over-reliance on GPS will cause massive financial and loss of life damage in the civilian sector if it's ever denied through jamming or kinetic attacks or solar storm etc.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#79
post #76

A lot of comments seem to be about spoofing. Remember that there are multiple humans in the loop -- experienced pilots and experienced air traffic controllers -- and multiple levels of redundancy. Pilots have access to barometric altitude, radar altitude, traditional VHF navaids, TCAS-issued resolution advisories (based on directional antennas, not GPS)... in addition to GPS. Air traffic controllers have primary rada…

> buying an aviation radio off the shelf and just chatting on the frequency or issuing fake clearances if you want to be a mass murderer Incidentally, I am happily surprised that that never seems to happen. One could so easily create so much chaos at an airport... There is no authentication whatsoever.

But the risks and consequences are catastrophic. The Feds will put you away forever for even attempting it.

Re: Air-Traffic Control Is in the Midst of a Major Change from Radar to GPS

#80

When the Kessler syndrome occurs, all transportation will grind to a halt. The Kessler syndrome is when collisions between objects cause a cascade in which each collision generates space debris that increases the likelihood of further collisions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

GPS satellites are in geosynchronous orbit, far above any threat of Kessler syndrome and we won't have nearly enough material in orbit that occlusion of the satellites would become a problem for centuries, if ever.

just fyi, they're in medium earth orbit, thousands of kilometers below geosynch. it's why you have to have an up to date almanac, to know which satellites you can see right now, and why cold starts used to take so damn long. (listen for 4 satellites at a time, trying to figure out which ones are there, when you have no idea when or where you are.)

(though i agree that kessler concerns are overblown.)

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