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Pharo 8.0

pharo.org

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Re: Pharo 8.0

#71

Post by badsectoracula »

zamadatix wrote: post #31
badsectoracula wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is the most requested, then perhaps one of those requesting it should try to do it themselves? HiDPI support sounds like a high effort low reward task (according to this[0] HiDPI monitors practically do not exist in the wild and chances are none of the main developers have one), so unless someone who really wants it puts the effort themselves it may take a long time to appear. Generally speaking unless there is…

How is a table of resolutions supposed to tell you anything about DPI? A 640x480 screen can be high DPI while a 3840x2160p screen standard DPI. Or the other way around. Or neither. Or both. It depends on both resolution AND physical size. It'd also be interesting if they were even checking physical resolution or virtual (scaled) resolution.

This is a table of desktop resolutions, while it is possible that someone might have connected a 2" 640x480 screen to their desktop, it is very safe to assume that only resolutions above 2560x1440 are HiDPI and anything else is just noise.

Re: Pharo 8.0

#72

Post by badsectoracula »

atemerev wrote: post #14
badsectoracula wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is the most requested, then perhaps one of those requesting it should try to do it themselves? HiDPI support sounds like a high effort low reward task (according to this[0] HiDPI monitors practically do not exist in the wild and chances are none of the main developers have one), so unless someone who really wants it puts the effort themselves it may take a long time to appear. Generally speaking unless there is…

Every Macbook after around 2015 is HiDPI. Windows Surface laptops, too. Hardly "practically do not exist in the wild". I love Smalltalk, but I am not qualified to rewrite the entire Pharo rendering layer, unfortunately. Also, statscounter doesn't account for high resolution displays at all, grouping them all as "other". And these are around 20%.

These are still very few compared to every other desktop available out there. I said they are rare, not that they do not exist.

If statscounter isn't up to your liking, then check:

https://www.screenresolution.org/ (typical desktop HiDPI resolutions like 3840x2160 are at ~0.1%)

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw... (gamers tend to have higher specs in their computers and 4K is a big trend in places like /r/buildapc and /r/pcgaming yet 4K is at just 1.51%)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/487487/leading-desktop-s... (only for UK and a couple years old but the likelihood of the statistics going dramatically up is very low)

Look, if all you work with is Macbooks and similar computers, it is very likely that your view is biased (pretty much like the people who wonder why others are making a fuss about Electron applications when they can run several of them without issues). According to this (1 year old):

https://www.cultofmac.com/618730/q1-2019-pc-market-apple-mac...

...Apple only had around 7% of the global market share of computer sales between big brands and not only that is very low but also it doesn't include local brands that assemble the computers themselves nor custom built computers (even though i do not believe this is a big number, considering the size of the custom built market that exists, it still is a significant number). And it is about all Mac sales, including the lower end iMac (that have a regular DPI monitor) and monitorless desktops like Mac Mini that can be connected to a regular DPI monitor.

HiDPI on desktop might be a mainstream thing in 10 years or so, but right now every single statistic available shows otherwise. On mobile is a different story though (which is why i tried to avoid any statistics page that focuses on mobile).

Re: Pharo 8.0

#73

Post by zamadatix »

badsectoracula wrote: post #71
zamadatix wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is a table of resolutions supposed to tell you anything about DPI? A 640x480 screen can be high DPI while a 3840x2160p screen standard DPI. Or the other way around. Or neither. Or both. It depends on both resolution AND physical size. It'd also be interesting if they were even checking physical resolution or virtual (scaled) resolution.

This is a table of desktop resolutions, while it is possible that someone might have connected a 2" 640x480 screen to their desktop, it is very safe to assume that only resolutions above 2560x1440 are HiDPI and anything else is just noise.

"Desktop" includes laptop at statcounter. 1080p is supposed to be 23".

And again if it's simply the resolution the browser reports it is post scale so a 2560x1440 laptop at 150% would show as 1920x1080 anyways. It's web stats, they only care about the size of the viewport.

Re: Pharo 8.0

#74

Post by rbanffy »

_pmf_ wrote: post #70
echelon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once interviewed a candidate who decided to use Pharo to solve my technical problem. It was an absolute joy to see not only a good approach, but such an interesting and alien language employed to solve it. He got the job. :)

> He got the job. I hope he's now writing CRUD apps in J2EE.

Why would you want that to anyone?

Re: Pharo 8.0

#75

Post by rbanffy »

klez wrote: post #35
armagon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed." - William Gibson I did some work in Smalltalk (working on a mod of Scratch 1.4, which was written in Squeak Smalltalk from the turn of the century). Once you got used to it, it was amazing. The environment is lively, and you can debug into everything. The tech is great; it is just that the community of people who know it is relatively small. If you want…

> On the other hand, if you wanted to make a cross-platform desktop application that doesn't look native (which, given the prevalence of Electron, doesn't seem to matter too much to people), this would be an excellent choice. Yeah, as if people are going to install a whole virtual machine to run a chat application... Wait...

> Yeah, as if people are going to install a whole virtual machine to run a chat application...

You can install an application that launches the VM with the desired image and the user will never know the app is running inside a Smalltalk VM.

Re: Pharo 8.0

#76

Post by rbanffy »

nundah wrote: post #61
Zenchess wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always use smalltalk when the problem would allow for it since I'm much more productive in smalltalk than anything else. It's great for certain random tasks - i.e. Want to set up a websocket server for some reason? Program it in smalltalk, test it interactively (literally debugging on execution errors, fixing and resuming execution until it works). If I'm writing a native windows app I'll go with dolphin smalltalk…

Dolphin Smalltalk. Such an underrated tool. Productivity + Windows-native gui. Nothing else like it. The Pharo Spec/2 pales in comparison.

IF you are developing a Windows-only application.

Re: Pharo 8.0

#77

Post by rbanffy »

overcast wrote: post #54
fmakunbound wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on a retina mac, and it looks like this https://imgur.com/a/iSkHMlJ text rendering-wise. Maybe it's my middle age eyes, but it looks fine to me???

This 39 year old with contacts definitely sees fuzzy characters. It would drive me crazy.

Wait 10 years, I'm 51 and it looks great ;-)

Re: Pharo 8.0

#78

Post by johnwheeler »

_pmf_ wrote: post #70
echelon wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once interviewed a candidate who decided to use Pharo to solve my technical problem. It was an absolute joy to see not only a good approach, but such an interesting and alien language employed to solve it. He got the job. :)

> He got the job. I hope he's now writing CRUD apps in J2EE.

EJB 1.0

Re: Pharo 8.0

#79

Post by seandenigris »

blihp wrote: post #56
zerr wrote: post #2

Pharo always looks cute, but does anyone here use it, even for toy stuff?

I've been using various Smalltalk dialects (Squeak/Cuis/Pharo) for over a decade. I've gone a bit off the deep end and use it for prototyping pretty much everywhere I can. Pharo would be the one Smalltalk environment I would not use for non-toy stuff because it has historically been so unstable. This is at least somewhat by design since the developers have always stated they didn't want to be constrained by backwards…

Due to Pharo/Smalltalk being not just a language, but a language/libraries/IDE, I think it's important to distinguish between API instability (which IHMO is better called evolution) vs. bugginess. API evolution is a core part of Pharo's mission. I've personally upgraded projects from Pharo 1.x all the way to Pharo 7 and have been very willing to trade a small amount of effort porting for big increases in productivity.

Re: Pharo 8.0

#80

Post by seandenigris »

bjoli wrote: post #33
zerr wrote: post #2

Pharo always looks cute, but does anyone here use it, even for toy stuff?

Writing small web services in seaside has been like living in the distant future since something like 2006. JavaScript made a lot of strides towards making seaside less impressive in recent years, but as someone who hates frontend stuff I still vastly prefer it. Playing with it in 2006 was like using magic. Sure, it is not REST, but whenever I show it off to someone used to handling a lot of stuff client side they st…

Cool perspective! FYI there are also REST add-ons now (as well as other more minimal frameworks) for when REST is desired.
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