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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#71

Post by krastanov »

lonelappde wrote: post #43
krastanov wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, and many others, hold the expectation that we are quite capable of overcoming our animal instincts (in this, but importantly in many other aspects also) to make a better world. Especially if the presence of the instinct is used as a pseudo science excuse.

What would I want to overcome the core reason for my existence?

Making kids is not even remotely the core reasons that many people have chosen for their existence. And this is not some egoistical selfish decision: there are many more ways in which you can take care of the next generation and make their lives better, without having to give birth. These are noble pursuits independent of gender.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#72

Post by balls187 »

My note to the author, enjoy your career. If and when you feel ready to start a family, you will. And if it doesn't happen, you'll be okay too.

Maternal Age seems like a boogie man story to scare women.

Perhaps STEM women who are early career (24-28) would benefit from meeting mothers (both who are in STEM and not in STEM careers) who had children at age 35+.

> ...Women who stay in academia expect to marry later, and delay or completely forego having children, and if they do have children, plan to have fewer than their non-STEM counterparts (Sassler et al 2016, Owens 2012). Men in STEM have no such difference compared to their non-STEM counterparts

I would love to see the figures regarding the partners of STEM Women vs STEM Men. Is it due to the old sexist notion that women must "marry up" so a woman with a successful career have partnered with someone who also has a successful career?

Having family shifts perspective. Perhaps some of these women no longer felt a strong desire to further their career, and family matters became more interesting?

As a father, I love my job, but I gladly set aside my career to raise my kids.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#73

Post by fizwhiz »

toufka wrote: post #29
GCA10 wrote: post #15

Thanks, Karen Morenz, for providing a unified, panoramic view of the ways that the standard academic career progression short-changes many female scientists, even if each step along the way seems to make sense. It's worth taking a look at three other professions with long, high-intensity pathways from apprentice to master --all of which have been wrestling with the same challenges. They are management consulting, law…

There is an unfortunate distinction between those other professions - STEM fields rarely pay even close to what consulting, law and medicine pay. Peers of equivalent talent in those 3 professions are generally making double to triple (if not more) by the time STEM graduates reach the same moment in their personal lives. And that 'moment' is generally delayed in STEM compared to those professions; you start generating…

> STEM fields rarely pay even close to what consulting, law and medicine pay. Peers of equivalent talent in those 3 professions are generally making double to triple (if not more) by the time STEM graduates reach the same moment in their personal lives.

These statements couldn't be further from the truth. You don't need to hang out on HN for long to figure out that FAANG SWEs comfortably make upwards of 400k in their late 20s[1]. Barring FB and perhaps Netflix, most tech companies tend to have fantastic work-life-balance if you prefer to take it easy. L5s at Google make what Partners at McKinsey make. If you normalize by the number of hours worked, SWEs make a hell of a lot more than their peers in consulting (management or the Big4) and about the same as the median cardiologist with maybe 20% of the effort.

[1] https://drive.google.com/file/d/19ne7ccUdOWewD4rFDQjjnQEJDgs...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#74

Post by brlewis »

untog wrote: post #42
amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

Not every problem is startup shaped. > think a benefits platform that allows companies to offer daycare as a benefit Companies could offer daycare as a benefit today if they wanted to. It isn't their benefits platform holding them back. In fairness, I can see why companies don't offer daycare as a benefit: it's enormously expensive (particularly in major metros) and it would be very difficult to plan what % of your e…

It doesn't fit the HN definition of startup, but here's a small, growing company doing just that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright_Horizons

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#75

Post by csb6 »

darawk wrote: post #27
csb6 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, many more women may choose to take the more active role, but it’s important to consider that these conscious choices are affected by implicit social pressures and expectations that are placed on men and women from childhood onwards, such as men being expected to be breadwinners and women being expected to be caregivers. These are pretty arbitrary social constructs that are not universal or intrinsic to nature o…

It's true that these social pressures exist, and they are certainly sexist. But I think it's important to distinguish that the pressure is what's sexist, not the impact of the choice.

Then let’s make an effort to expose and reform these sexist structures! That is the goal of people trying to reform the mindset of STEM institutions. These structures are not fixed, and so can be changed.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#76

Post by bradlys »

tathougies wrote: post #47
amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

Daycare isn't an appropriate analogue to your example though. A shift in culture that allows you to bring your children to work would be and would be absolutely sensible for white collar and several blue collar jobs.

I've had coworkers bring their children into work - they're highly distracting and not good for work place productivity. It's not like bringing a pet into work that just sits on the floor or on their lap - and may as well be close to an inanimate object.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#77

Post by balls187 »

tathougies wrote: post #47
amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

Daycare isn't an appropriate analogue to your example though. A shift in culture that allows you to bring your children to work would be and would be absolutely sensible for white collar and several blue collar jobs.

Or perhaps, allowing parents to work from home.

I'd imagine many families are like mine, where our house is strategically designed for optimal childcare.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#78

Post by tathougies »

deyouz wrote: post #10

The article is about women in STEM in Academia, not just STEM. And I don't understand why people absolutely need to have biological children. I think more people should just adopt if they want to raise children. I also think sexism in the US is the biggest factor for women leaving Academia or not entering STEM. In other countries more than 50% of the researchers are women and 40% of the students studying computer sci…

There are few infants to adopt due to the success of americas adoption programs and the willingness of americans to adopt. The ones that are 'easy' to adopt almost universally have special needs that most people (especially working parents) simply cannot meet.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#79

Post by detoxdetox »

entee wrote: post #40
GCA10 wrote: post #15

Thanks, Karen Morenz, for providing a unified, panoramic view of the ways that the standard academic career progression short-changes many female scientists, even if each step along the way seems to make sense. It's worth taking a look at three other professions with long, high-intensity pathways from apprentice to master --all of which have been wrestling with the same challenges. They are management consulting, law…

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized.

To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women. In modern times, we get by with 2 children per fertile woman, and that frees up a lot of female energy to be channeled elsewhere. It is high time to recognize that 2 children is still a lot of effort and make room for Mothers to take care of their own children.

Instead, we are soft forcing Mothers to drop their kids in the care of poorly paid strangers at the earliest convenience, to spend their full time energy enriching faceless shareholders. And have the gall to call this arrangement "female empowerment".

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#80

Post by theflyinghorse »

tharne wrote: post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

Agreed. I am completely failing to understand why anyone would willingly go into academia provided other options are available.
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