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Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

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Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#71
post #35

When I was a nerdy teenager I imagined that by a date like 2020 humankind would have cured cancer, built a base on the Moon or Mars, eradicated infectious diseases and taken control over climate and weather. It turns out that in the real world progress is a lot slower than in the imagination of a sci-fi-imbued teenager. It turns out that solving problems takes work. A lot of it. If people work less, especially if eng…

what have you done to move progress along? i'd bet dollars to donuts you have been too busy earning money doing useless shit like advertising, finance, or entertainment, a net negative for everyone, and jerking off to mainstream media on your own time. no offense. i did it too for about 15 years.

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#72
post #35

When I was a nerdy teenager I imagined that by a date like 2020 humankind would have cured cancer, built a base on the Moon or Mars, eradicated infectious diseases and taken control over climate and weather. It turns out that in the real world progress is a lot slower than in the imagination of a sci-fi-imbued teenager. It turns out that solving problems takes work. A lot of it. If people work less, especially if eng…

Most people in Silicon Valley working long hours are not toiling for missions remotely related to those utopian visions.

Maybe. I'd suggest that it can difficult to tell exactly what advancement brings us closer to "Utopia." Everyone easily accpets the idea that basic research can have long term effects in unpredictable ways. I'd suggest that some trivial commercial advancements can do the same thing.

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#73
post #35

When I was a nerdy teenager I imagined that by a date like 2020 humankind would have cured cancer, built a base on the Moon or Mars, eradicated infectious diseases and taken control over climate and weather. It turns out that in the real world progress is a lot slower than in the imagination of a sci-fi-imbued teenager. It turns out that solving problems takes work. A lot of it. If people work less, especially if eng…

Well up until recently I spent 9-10 hours a day programming machines that turned mountains into countertops and fireplace and such for rich people. Every day I kind of made the world worse to make some rich people happy. I mean there was one day we took a slab of 10 million year old fossils cut from the bottom of the ocean and made it into a counter. This arguably does not improve the world. 4 day weeks or 6 hour day…

in my years of money work, i contributed to pollution, sugar addiction, advertising, the financial crisis, general environmental destruction, etc. i would have done more good sitting on my hands.

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#74
post #70
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think perhaps you're reading too much into what was a non-sarcastic comment? I genuinely mean I haven't come across a widespread (or existent) official 6-hour working day in Scandinavia. In Norway at least, it's true that lots of people finish work relatively early - but only because they start work really early (6-7am)!

Gah, sorry, I replied to the wrong comment, and can't delete it now!

Gotcha!

I had searched for the sarcasm in previous comments in our thread to no avail!

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#75
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the work. Based on experience I would rather have a happy, well-rested developer working for me who is aching to get to work in the morning and who has the brains to leave for home as soon as he or she feels tired or unfocused. If that happens at 2pm or 4pm, I don't actually care. If people are still at the office at 6pm, or if I see people are tired, unfocused or are only goofing off, I ask them to go hom…

Makes total sense to have a worker well rested and happy (40 hours does that sufficiently well). Your submission works if it is a task such as programming. A programmer can finish their week's tasks in 3 days or less and you'd be fine with that. That's not most programmers though. Moreover, I have had other businesses where the time you pay for as an employer totally matters if you're to get an ROI. If I need you for…

I think the reason most programmers are relatively unproductive is that they don't step away when they are not being productive. Stepping away from work when you are not performing well has (at least) two positive effects. One is that you get some rest. The other is that the change of context is good for problem solving. It helps to go home and do something else while at the back of your mind you are still trying to solve problems. I try to avoid just hanging around the office when I'm kind of half stuck or fully stuck. Because I'm not really all that productive.

Programming really isn't about hours but about the quality of those hours.

For manual labor things are of course entirely different. But I'm not talking about manual labor.

(Of course, in some companies, programming is seen as a kind of manual labor where people naively assume that hours spent working translates in some linear fashion. To quote something an executive at a large company said in a meeting: "I don't understand how there can be more productive programmers and less productive...they're just writing code, right? So any developer is interchangeable with any other, right?".)

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#76
post #30

A six hour day is plenty if you actually work and if you have a bit of discipline. Most people don't. They spend much of their day just goofing off - wasting their own time and often the time of their coworkers. I bet most of you reading this do not spend 8-10-12 or whatever number of hours you claim to be at work actually working productively. You goof off often as much as half the time. Possibly more if you work fo…

> They spend much of their day just goofing off - wasting their own time and often the time of their coworkers. This is why a world where everyone is an independent contractor feels...right. I don't know how you could implement it properly, but from a high level it works: work when you want to, take holidays when you want to, move around. There's no such thing as "businesses will take advantage of workers though!" be…

I've been an independent contractor a few periods of my life and if you bill by the hour, that changes the dynamics a bit. You become focused on hours and not what you produce. Doing stuff for fixed price is risky too since it requires you to nail estimates pretty well to avoid ending up with a low effective hourly rate (or screwing your customer).

My solution was to charge by the day. You pay me a fixed price for every day I work on your project. Some days I may work 4 hours, other days I may work 15 hours. But it provides me with more flexibility and, at least in my experience, it is easier to end up with a fair price (as long as you don't try to take advantage of the customer).

I actually stumbled across this solution. My initial motivation was to reduce the amount of pointless accounting work. But I eventually discovered that this had other benefits.

I have a team of programmers working for me (full time, fixed salary) and they all manage their own time and their own projects. If they need to take a week off because they feel tired, they just need to let me know. And I trust them to act responsibly. As long as we deliver what we have promised, I don't care if people take more time off than their contractually stipulated paid vacation. The only time I may step in is if they do not take time off. (Actually, in Norway, you can get in trouble if your people don't take at least some minimum amount of time off.)

And I think the results speak for themselves. I'd be hard pressed to find a team that is more productive in my company. We easily outpace other teams by a factor of 2-3 in terms of productivity within a company of about 25-30k employees.

There are, of course, multiple reasons for the high productivity - not only the fact that I don't interfere with how individuals manage their time. I think one important reason is that I often hire people who are older than the average developer. My people are probably 40 years or above on average. One of my most productive people is in his mid 50s. I think the reason the holder people on my team are faster is because they're more experienced, and in particular, they have more experience in attacking problems that they have never been exposed to before. (And that's what 90% of the work we do consists of).

Re: Finland's Prime Minister Suggests a Four-Day Workweek and Six-Hour Days

#77
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes total sense to have a worker well rested and happy (40 hours does that sufficiently well). Your submission works if it is a task such as programming. A programmer can finish their week's tasks in 3 days or less and you'd be fine with that. That's not most programmers though. Moreover, I have had other businesses where the time you pay for as an employer totally matters if you're to get an ROI. If I need you for…

I think the reason most programmers are relatively unproductive is that they don't step away when they are not being productive. Stepping away from work when you are not performing well has (at least) two positive effects. One is that you get some rest. The other is that the change of context is good for problem solving. It helps to go home and do something else while at the back of your mind you are still trying to…

> they don't step away when they are not being productive

I agree that taking breaks is definitely a good thing. The brain can only handle so much after all.

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