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US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

reuters.com

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Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#71

Post by skissane »

secondo wrote: post #4

As a European I feel increasingly concerned about the influence of US in our recent trading decisions. The sense of an alliance feels somewhat imbalanced to say the least. Interestingly whereas we have an advanced hardware industry we’re so far behind on leading software solutions that I doubt there will be any change to this balance any time soon. I guess software is eating the world...

> Interestingly whereas we have an advanced hardware industry we’re so far behind on leading software solutions that I doubt there will be any change to this balance any time soon. I guess software is eating the world...

SAP?

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#72

Post by sykick »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #70
sykick wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your response. It seems like we are saying, at least to some extent, the same thing. Does this mean that you agree that a straight monetary comparison of spending is not adequate to give an accurate portrayal of relative military might? In case there is misunderstanding on what I meant by duplication let me be more specific. The UK and France both have similar military command structures. Thus coll…

Fyi: The EU is 20 years old and police isn't in the defense budget. A budget 4 times as large makes a way bigger army. The USSR military wise, was 5 times as strong and still they collapsed. The Russian economy isn't strong enough to support a war this size in modern times and in the process losing their primary trade partner. The EU can easily spend more on financing a war than Russia, military spending is currently…

There are examples of a fragmented coalition winning a war. There are also examples of losing a war. I believe you view is antiquated and not rooted in the present reality of the world. There will be no conventional war with the EU. The war is a cyber one and one of swaying public opinion and one of sowing the seeds of doubt and confusion. At least as I see things. I'm by no means an expert but what is happening in the UK with it leaving the EU (supposedly!) and in the U.S. makes it clear that at present Russia is winning by fracturing the West. It remains to be seen if the EU can come together and form a cohesive alliance or if it will be fractured further with more states seeking to leave the EU.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#73

Post by est31 »

yorwba wrote: post #35
est31 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH I'm glad it's not sold off. Europe has barely any large world leading companies in the digital sector. ASML is one of those world leaders. As for your american influence point, I'd certainly prefer if a strong EU council would block the sale instead of our transatlantic partners, but EU council can't even prevent OBOR in central europe...

The article is not about ASML getting sold, but about ASML selling (or rather, not selling) their product to customers in China.

Oh thanks for pointing that out. I read that wrongly.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#74

Post by tooltalk »

dirtyid wrote: post #48
tooltalk wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also I didn't mean to implicate Samsung was behind the attacks ... Really? After describing XTAL as "owned by Chinese/Korean" when Samsung was just an outside investor and quoting ASML CEO accusing Samsung? Or how about your willful ignorance that Samsung had been a major 5+% "owner" of ASML under customer co-investment program since 2012? Sure, you may be right. I'm a software engineer, so I don't have any insight…

Samsung is a 30% shareholder of Xtal. Xtal became an immediate ASML competitor for Samsung semiconductor using the theft as implied by "our biggest Korean customer" quoted from ASML CEO in interviews. Stating Samsung is the immediate beneficiary of the theft as conjectured (AKA "hinted") by Dutch media based on ASML CEO interview at the time... is not neutral how? Lot's of IP shenanigan in high barrier semiconductor…

>> Samsung is a 30% shareholder of Xtal.

Samsung's 30% share amounts to less than $8M versus Samsung's share in ASML which amounted to about $500+M and $277M in additional funding, or $777+M in total. XTAL had fewer than a dozen employees. I think it's fairly clear where Samsung's "economic interest lies in this case, but Samsung is also known for diversifying their suppliers. The company bought display panels from their competitors Sharp, LGD and even BOE who had been "hinted" as having stolen their flexible displays.

As for the CEO's comment, I also posted a link to ASML's official statement denying Samsung's role after the CEO made that statement. And yet you claim that you "didn't mean implicate" the company?

> Korean Chaebol industrial policy has history of IP theft to benefit domestic industries

can you cite sources for Korean Chaebol's "industrial policy"? Or are you still bitter about Samsung implicating Taiwanese display companies, like AUOptics in price-fixing cases, which resulted in $500M fines years back?

>Like what is this even?

Sure, read my earlier comment about Taiwanese's collective insecurity or inferior complex which stems from their fear of Samsung (https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/22/technology/taiwan-tries-t...). See also my comment about Samsung's reporting of price-fixing by Taiwanese companies. I've encountered into others making similar comments about this particular case and they were all predictably of Taiwanese origin.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#75

Post by imtringued »

sykick wrote: post #46
NicoJuicy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe easily outspends Russia in military investments. 287$ billion for Europe, 70$ for Russia in 2015 ( russia vs europe military spend: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=russia+vs+europe+milit... ) So, I don't know where your opinion comes from. But I think you could be better informed ;) Ps. I do think we should buy less US and spend more European. Eg. The F-35 is a joke currently, considering the costs.

Collectively Europe outspends Russia in military investments. However, there is quite a bit of duplication in the individual European armies that make a straight comparison misleading. I suggest that military spending is not an accurate enough indicator of relative strength. Defense spending alone is meaningless if there is not an accompanying ability/willingness to project power. Russia is certainly not shy about pr…

The duplication is beneficial for defense. Once the first line is penetrated, defense becomes very difficult. More countries mean more first lines of defense.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#76

Post by sykick »

imtringued wrote: post #75
sykick wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collectively Europe outspends Russia in military investments. However, there is quite a bit of duplication in the individual European armies that make a straight comparison misleading. I suggest that military spending is not an accurate enough indicator of relative strength. Defense spending alone is meaningless if there is not an accompanying ability/willingness to project power. Russia is certainly not shy about pr…

The duplication is beneficial for defense. Once the first line is penetrated, defense becomes very difficult. More countries mean more first lines of defense.

There can be advantages for coalitions in a war. There are also disadvantages. However, this is not the point I made. The only point I made is that $x spent by say 15 countries on defense is not at all equivalent to $x spent by a single country on defense in terms of military power, force projection, etc. due to the aforementioned duplication of HR, admin and other ancillary roles in supporting a military force.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#77

Post by [deleted] »

sykick wrote: post #72
NicoJuicy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fyi: The EU is 20 years old and police isn't in the defense budget. A budget 4 times as large makes a way bigger army. The USSR military wise, was 5 times as strong and still they collapsed. The Russian economy isn't strong enough to support a war this size in modern times and in the process losing their primary trade partner. The EU can easily spend more on financing a war than Russia, military spending is currently…

There are examples of a fragmented coalition winning a war. There are also examples of losing a war. I believe you view is antiquated and not rooted in the present reality of the world. There will be no conventional war with the EU. The war is a cyber one and one of swaying public opinion and one of sowing the seeds of doubt and confusion. At least as I see things. I'm by no means an expert but what is happening in t…

[deleted]
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