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Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

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Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#71

Post by VladRussian »

hammock wrote: post #26

I don't actually see washing the dishes as a "morale boosting" action. It's more about taking initiative. Dirty dishes is one of those public goods problems, where multiple people's dishes build up in the sink and no one washes them. The one who takes initiative and washes the whole sink as opposed to just his own is looked at as a leader, someone responsible and trustworthy, not necessarily a dishes bitch. Being a r…

>The one who takes initiative and washes the whole sink as opposed to just his own is looked at as a leader, someone responsible and trustworthy, not necessarily a dishes bitch

A leadership lesson for you :

The one who takes initiative and organizes those multiple people to wash the whole sink is looked at as a leader.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#72

Post by Silhouette »

grellas wrote: post #48

Want to be a great leader? Work hard to develop extraordinary skills. Become an independent thinker and have the courage to follow your ideas. Show respect to others and never think more highly of yourself than you ought. Avoid bad habits of sloth, dissipation, dishonesty, and other qualities that would cause others to lose respect for you. Set goals that challenge you to do your best and follow diligently after them…

I'm with you on most of that, but I think this point is a little dangerous:

> Avoid bad habits of sloth,

Willingness to pitch in when hard work really is called for is a necessary and valuable trait, of course. However, working hard when you don't have to is wasteful, and too many people confuse the two.

Sometimes, a natural inclination to be "lazy" is a lot like trying to avoid unnecessary work by being smart. I would rather work for the boss who identified the problem and bought a dishwasher.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#73

Post by jrockway »

cosmicray wrote: post #42
guptaneil wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if that's the only thing you're known for. I have a lot of respect for a CEO that runs the entire company and doesn't consider himself too high to do the grunt work too.

> doesn't consider himself too high to do the grunt work too go read 'Up the Organization' by Robert Towsend (written many years ago when he was the CEO of Avis Rent-a-car). Everyone at Avis (janitor, receptionist, CEO, all the way down the line) was required to work 1 or 2 days a year at the counter, renting cars. Helped everyone what business they were in, and why they had a job.

Or, "this is why I don't know anyone smart that works at Avis".

No offense, but the day I have to work as a bank teller is the day I stop working for a bank.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#74

Post by deadmansshoes »

muhfuhkuh wrote: post #64
jarek wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's just my millenial entitlement, but that strikes me as a bad strategy. Unless the business was a cleaning or maintenance company, cleaning the bathroom seems far removed from anything relevant to my work and is in essence busywork. Questions that immediately spring into mind: is this some weird attempt at saving money by having employees do both their job and cleaning? Is this supposed to be some hazing rit…

So, you wouldn't work out at a place like Zappos, where everyone had to hit the phones and do customer support their first two weeks, from application developers to executives. "Making employees clean it on their first day? Not so much." What will you do your first day as a business owner (that is, if that's the end goal for you)? That's just one of the many things you'll do yourself for awhile, just FYI.

Doesn't that just lead to bad, untrained customer support? I'd rather speak to someone who knew how to answer a question.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#76

Post by muhfuhkuh »

jarek wrote: post #69
muhfuhkuh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you wouldn't work out at a place like Zappos, where everyone had to hit the phones and do customer support their first two weeks, from application developers to executives. "Making employees clean it on their first day? Not so much." What will you do your first day as a business owner (that is, if that's the end goal for you)? That's just one of the many things you'll do yourself for awhile, just FYI.

No, I personally wouldn't work at Zappos. But their reason to hit the phones is to understand the business and its customers. Unless edw519's father's company was in cleaning or maintenance, cleaning bathrooms won't help you understand its business. While I currently have no concrete plans for my own business, I imagine that on the first day, I will be working from my home, which I currently clean myself. When it get…

"But their reason to hit the phones is to understand the business and its customers."

No it's not. If I'm a DB admin, I sure as _hell_ wouldn't be caught dead reading through a sizing chart for some chatty gal in Texas. No way.

At least that's the so-called "millenial" mentality, right?

Cleaning bathrooms is a task. You're hired by your employer to do a job, which involves many tasks I'm sure. You're not just a title holder or a problem domain solver. And, as long as you "have no concrete plans" to be your own boss, you'll _always_ be looked upon as an employee. I think you conflate your titles with "I do no other thing than that with which I am programmed". That's what we layfolk call a machine, not an employee.

But, if you prefer abject reductionism of the employee definition, you're a unit of work. That includes whatever the employer wants. Request in, results out; regardless of what the request is. I don't need you to understand my business; that's _my_ business. I just need you to work for me.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#77

Post by jarek »

deadmansshoes wrote: post #74
muhfuhkuh wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you wouldn't work out at a place like Zappos, where everyone had to hit the phones and do customer support their first two weeks, from application developers to executives. "Making employees clean it on their first day? Not so much." What will you do your first day as a business owner (that is, if that's the end goal for you)? That's just one of the many things you'll do yourself for awhile, just FYI.

Doesn't that just lead to bad, untrained customer support? I'd rather speak to someone who knew how to answer a question.

Also leads to your development team self-selecting for only people of at least average social skill, but whether this is a bad thing depends on your point of view.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#78

Post by joe_the_user »

grellas wrote: post #48

Want to be a great leader? Work hard to develop extraordinary skills. Become an independent thinker and have the courage to follow your ideas. Show respect to others and never think more highly of yourself than you ought. Avoid bad habits of sloth, dissipation, dishonesty, and other qualities that would cause others to lose respect for you. Set goals that challenge you to do your best and follow diligently after them…

"That man might never make a mark in the broader society but I could see he would be a fine leader wherever his life circumstances took him."

Ah the leadership question...

Being a few years past high school, it's interesting to look at many people who seemed like leaders but never made it.

Some times it was life-circumstances. But I think think there is also a too-great a willingness to merely work hard at what presented itself.

There much that has been said on this but it's worth mentioning that to reach a certain level of leadership, while you can continue leading a bit by example, you have to be mainly willing to delegate a lot of the actual work. Essentially, you have to be able to use people. It's more than positive vibes.

In software, in particular, inspiration has never been part of the equation for any good manager manager I've had. Instead, saying what mattered and getting out of the way has always been key. Don't lead technical people by example. Don't clean our bathrooms or our code. "Mr. Energy" would not be welcome here. And I've had too many managers who were bad because they never learned the lesson that their job was no longer coding or even "inspiring" but organizing and bureaucracy-hacking.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#79

Post by jarek »

muhfuhkuh wrote: post #76
jarek wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I personally wouldn't work at Zappos. But their reason to hit the phones is to understand the business and its customers. Unless edw519's father's company was in cleaning or maintenance, cleaning bathrooms won't help you understand its business. While I currently have no concrete plans for my own business, I imagine that on the first day, I will be working from my home, which I currently clean myself. When it get…

"But their reason to hit the phones is to understand the business and its customers." No it's not. If I'm a DB admin, I sure as _hell_ wouldn't be caught dead reading through a sizing chart for some chatty gal in Texas. No way. At least that's the so-called "millenial" mentality, right? Cleaning bathrooms is a task. You're hired by your employer to do a job, which involves many tasks I'm sure. You're not just a title…

While I appreciate being judged without being known as much as the next guy, no, you're wrong. (How's that for a millenial thing to say!)

I'm not sure where "I won't clean bathrooms on my first day as a software developer" turns into "I do no other thing than that with which I am programmed" (emphasis added). If you were a DB admin, would you think walking the owners' dog is beneficial for your career? Will you do everything an employer asks of you? If not, where do you draw the line, and why?

These actions have results. By making everyone hit the phones, you select against those not comfortable with talking to people they don't know on the phone. (Do I need to point out that you have no idea if they're socially incompetent, spoiled, or they don't like talking on the phone because of a hearing impediment?) By making people clean the bathrooms on their first day, you select against those who aren't interested in proving their willingness to get their hands dirty with busywork absolutely unrelated to their careers. That might be your intended goal. That is fine. Just realize what you're doing. I heard good employees are hard to find these days.

An employer is absolutely free to treat me as a machine to perform units of whatever work happens to be necessary. And I am absolutely free to not work for employers like that.

What I call a machine is someone who does whatever the management asks of them with no personal thoughts, concerns, or plans to speak of. Someone will have to understand your business, and unless you have no concrete plans to grow beyond a five-person shop, that will have to include someone other than the big boss.

Re: Want to be a leader? Wash the Dishes When Nobody Else Will.

#80

Post by jasonlotito »

jarek wrote: post #50
edw519 wrote: post #39

This reminds me of the litmus test my father had in his small business years ago. Every new employee, no matter where they worked, had the same first task: clean the bathroom. Lots of people never made it through the first day. I guess he figured that the best way to have employees who would "wash the dishes when nobody else will" is to only hire those who would.

Maybe it's just my millenial entitlement, but that strikes me as a bad strategy. Unless the business was a cleaning or maintenance company, cleaning the bathroom seems far removed from anything relevant to my work and is in essence busywork. Questions that immediately spring into mind: is this some weird attempt at saving money by having employees do both their job and cleaning? Is this supposed to be some hazing rit…

> Maybe it's just my millenial entitlement, but that strikes me as a bad strategy.

I don't know if has anything to do with your "millenial" (seriously, you use this word to describe yourself?) entitlement, but it's not a bad strategy for both you or the company. You don't want to work for a company like that, and they don't want employees like you.

Extrapolate that into numerous other "First Day/First Week/First Month" tasks other companies use, and it serves it's purpose.

Do not for a moment confuse cleaning the bathroom as the strategy. It's not. The strategy is sound. Your comment, if anything, is proof of this. Which again, is a good thing. =)

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