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How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

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Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#71

Post by tannedNerd »

gdy wrote: post #66
keldaris wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason Russia comes out okay in your comparison is because it simply lacks the capacity to project power the way the U.S. does - there's only one global superpower, for now. If you look at areas where Russia has had an effectively free hand - like Chechnya, for instance - adjusting for scale, the resulting atrocities are worse than anything the U.S. has done since Vietnam. And in terms of internal repression…

"The only reason Russia comes out okay in your comparison is because it simply lacks the capacity to project power the way the U.S. does" Why do you presume this? "like Chechnya, for instance" There are no other instances. And in that particular case, we don't know what the alternatives are. Considering Chechen raids into neighbouring regions and Saudi Arabia's and Turkey's influence in Chechnya, we could've gotten a…

I like how you conveniently don’t mention Afghanistan, which was the Soviet Unions Vietnam, except with more war crimes somehow.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#72

Post by gdy »

pjc50 wrote: post #34
gdy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our other options are to associate with eg China or Russia, and between those the US, even with people like Trump at the wheel, is splendid." Russia has done nothing even remotely comparable to what the US has done in Middle East: after the second Iraq war the country still hasn't recovered, Libya is a mess, Syria is a mess, ISIS was a horror. After all that calling the US splendid compared to Russia is bizarre. May…

Russian treatment of Chechnya is comparable.

Not really, see my over comments here.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#73

Post by keldaris »

gdy wrote: post #66
keldaris wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason Russia comes out okay in your comparison is because it simply lacks the capacity to project power the way the U.S. does - there's only one global superpower, for now. If you look at areas where Russia has had an effectively free hand - like Chechnya, for instance - adjusting for scale, the resulting atrocities are worse than anything the U.S. has done since Vietnam. And in terms of internal repression…

"The only reason Russia comes out okay in your comparison is because it simply lacks the capacity to project power the way the U.S. does" Why do you presume this? "like Chechnya, for instance" There are no other instances. And in that particular case, we don't know what the alternatives are. Considering Chechen raids into neighbouring regions and Saudi Arabia's and Turkey's influence in Chechnya, we could've gotten a…

> Why do you presume this?

Because every single hegemonic imperial power in human history has a list of atrocities only limited by its reach and time in power. That Russia happens to be a repressive kleptocracy makes it an even safer bet, of course, but any state whose power is effectively unchecked will pursue its perceived interest at the expense of everyone else, often with horrifying results.

> There are no other instances. And in that particular case, we don't know what the alternatives are. Considering Chechen raids into neighbouring regions and Saudi Arabia's and Turkey's influence in Chechnya, we could've gotten another Islamic State.

The First Chechen War predates the first Chechen attacks outside of their own territory by over two years. That fact alone eliminates any potential rationale along the lines of "preventing terrorism". It was in fact the Russian military operation (opposed at the time by many of their own military commanders as an atrocity in the making) and its brutality that caused some of the guerilla groups to turn to terrorism, not vice versa. This fact doesn't excuse any of the many atrocities committed by the guerillas, by the way, merely invalidates your argument.

And if you want other instances, it suffices to mention Afghanistan. Obviously, there are others, but like I said - the reach of the Russian government is blissfully short.

> "geographical malady of being next to Russia" This sounds Russophobic. When you want to write something like this, try replacing Russians and Russia with Jews and Israel, and see if it still sounds okey.

Is that some sort of an attempt to substitute virtue signaling for argument? I'm not familiar with this tactic. Regardless, my point is trivially simple - if you're a country that borders Russia, your chances of being subject to measures ranging from targeted state-sponsored cyberattack on vital infrastructure all the way to outright occupation go way up. Historically, that's always been the case with expansionistic empires, there just aren't many of those left.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#74

Post by gdy »

tannedNerd wrote: post #71
gdy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The only reason Russia comes out okay in your comparison is because it simply lacks the capacity to project power the way the U.S. does" Why do you presume this? "like Chechnya, for instance" There are no other instances. And in that particular case, we don't know what the alternatives are. Considering Chechen raids into neighbouring regions and Saudi Arabia's and Turkey's influence in Chechnya, we could've gotten a…

I like how you conveniently don’t mention Afghanistan, which was the Soviet Unions Vietnam, except with more war crimes somehow.

I haven't mentioned Vietnam either.

And if I were you, I wouldn't bring up Afghanistan, because the US was on the side of Islamic extremists. The main recipient of American weapons was the guy who had been throwing acid into faces of female students.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#75

Post by scottLobster »

cyberferret wrote: post #8
chvid wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t win the war by being good. But if you win the war you get to write the history.

True that. Both my parents grew up near a POW camp in Malaysia during WWII. They said that yes, when the Japanese occupied Malaya, the treatment of the allied prisoners by the Japanese guards was brutal and cruel. But they also said when the tables turned later in the war, and the Japanese were prisoners in the same camps under British and US guards, the treatment dished out was every way just as bad.

Some quick googling shows allied POW death rates in Japanese custody were between 27-36%.

I can't find any hard consolidated numbers for Japanese POWs in allied custody after the war, but I can't find any event that even approaches the scale of the Bataan Death March or Unit 731 let alone other documented Japanese cruelties.

It's possible your parents witnessed some isolated cruelty, but there is zero evidence that on the whole the UK/US were equivalent to the Japanese in treatment of prisoners.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#76

Post by gdy »

keldaris wrote: post #73
gdy wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The only reason Russia comes out okay in your comparison is because it simply lacks the capacity to project power the way the U.S. does" Why do you presume this? "like Chechnya, for instance" There are no other instances. And in that particular case, we don't know what the alternatives are. Considering Chechen raids into neighbouring regions and Saudi Arabia's and Turkey's influence in Chechnya, we could've gotten a…

> Why do you presume this? Because every single hegemonic imperial power in human history has a list of atrocities only limited by its reach and time in power. That Russia happens to be a repressive kleptocracy makes it an even safer bet, of course, but any state whose power is effectively unchecked will pursue its perceived interest at the expense of everyone else, often with horrifying results. > There are no other…

"every single hegemonic imperial power" What does this have to do with Russia?

"will pursue its perceived interest at the expense of everyone else, often with horrifying results"

Sounds like the US.

"It was in fact"

Was it? The raids were happening after the peace was signed. And ethnic cleansing of non-Chechens was happening before the first war.

"And if you want other instances, it suffices to mention Afghanistan"

You probably haven't got the memo -- there is no USSR for almost 30 years. The country has changed dramatically, which couldn't be said about the US after Vietnam war.

"Is that some sort of an attempt to substitute virtue signaling for argument"

On your part there was no argument, only prejudice.

"if you're a country that borders Russia, your chances of being subject to measures"

Correction: "if you're are a country on Russian border inviting NATO and threatening by this Russia's own security". Being relatively neutral like Finland is just fine.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#77

Post by sorokod »

cyberferret wrote: post #2

Why is it, when reading this article, all I can picture is that meme of the SS officer saying "Wait a minute... Are WE the baddies?". I am starting to interpret a lot of things I took for granted in my younger years with a different viewpoint, and I am increasingly horrified when I do, as the perceptions I've always had that most Western countries are the benevolent benefactors is tainted by stories such as this, whi…

Mitchell and Webb.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#78

Post by keldaris »

gdy wrote: post #76
keldaris wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you presume this? Because every single hegemonic imperial power in human history has a list of atrocities only limited by its reach and time in power. That Russia happens to be a repressive kleptocracy makes it an even safer bet, of course, but any state whose power is effectively unchecked will pursue its perceived interest at the expense of everyone else, often with horrifying results. > There are no other…

"every single hegemonic imperial power" What does this have to do with Russia? "will pursue its perceived interest at the expense of everyone else, often with horrifying results" Sounds like the US. "It was in fact" Was it? The raids were happening after the peace was signed. And ethnic cleansing of non-Chechens was happening before the first war. "And if you want other instances, it suffices to mention Afghanistan"…

> Sounds like the US.

Absolutely. Like I said, the only real difference in terms of atrocities abroad is one of capabilities. The U.S. happens to be the overwhelmingly most powerful state since WW2 (arguably since WW1), so it conducts most of the atrocities.

> Was it? The raids were happening after the peace was signed. And ethnic cleansing of non-Chechens was happening before the first war.

Neither of which contradicts my point at all. Not sure what you're arguing here.

> You probably haven't got the memo -- there is no USSR for almost 30 years. The country has changed dramatically, which couldn't be said about the US after Vietnam war.

In terms of its perceived behavior abroad, the most significant difference is that it now has a number of neighbors that had been forcibly incorporated into the USSR and want to avoid a repetition of that miserable fate at all costs.

> Correction: "if you're are a country on Russian border inviting NATO and threatening by this Russia's own security". Being relatively neutral like Finland is just fine.

The reason most of those countries did everything they could to get into NATO as quickly as possible is because they perceive Russia as a threat. Unless you seriously think NATO is going to conduct a first strike attack on Russia, the only way in which that threatens Russia's security is if you think "security" means "ability to interfere in neighbors' affairs unchecked". In which case, yes, that's the point.

Ultimately, this back and forth misses the actual reason EU countries are overwhelmingly friendlier to the U.S. than to Russia. One is a highly flawed hegemonic empire with a history of ill advised military adventurism and, crucially, a high standard of living. The other is a crumbling kleptocracy with a low standard of living and a myriad of social problems. If you have to choose one, it's not a hard choice at all. Comparisons of atrocities conducted on the other side of the world don't really enter into it for most people.

EDIT: By the way, since you took issue with my "geographical malady" phrasing and seem to think I'm defending the U.S. in some way - I also think it's a geographical malady to be a small country on the doorstep of the U.S. Virtually the entire region of Central America serves as a poignant example of that. Being a tiny country on the doorstep of a powerful empire is just a tough place to be, and Eastern European countries are lucky that they can use U.S. influence as a counterweight to Russia and thereby eke out a measure of independence. Others don't have that luxury.

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#79

Post by atombender »

tekkk wrote: post #15
cyberferret wrote: post #2

Why is it, when reading this article, all I can picture is that meme of the SS officer saying "Wait a minute... Are WE the baddies?". I am starting to interpret a lot of things I took for granted in my younger years with a different viewpoint, and I am increasingly horrified when I do, as the perceptions I've always had that most Western countries are the benevolent benefactors is tainted by stories such as this, whi…

Well when you look down the history you'll find every nation did something horrible (if they have existed long enough). US itself is quite special case in its imperialism which happened much later than the others's (Spain, Netherlands etc). But coming back to present day, it's the actions that we do now that in my opinion matter the most. And US keeps failing on those still, time after time. European countries are in…

The US military is an enormous polluter, even on native soil. Places like Hanford site — which is still undergoing cleanup after being decommissioned in the 1970s — are well known, but there are thousands of places the military has ravaged.

One good example is the naval training range the island of Vieques outside Puerto Rico [1], abandoned in the early 2000s and today a superfund site; they're still cleaning that up. Heavy metals such as mercury pollute the soil, cancer rates are way up, and the Eastern side of the island is littered with ammunition, unexploded ordnance and possibly depleted uranium.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_in_Vieques,...

Re: How the U.S. betrayed the Marshall Islands, kindling the next nuclear disaster

#80

Post by generalpass »

atombender wrote: post #79
tekkk wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well when you look down the history you'll find every nation did something horrible (if they have existed long enough). US itself is quite special case in its imperialism which happened much later than the others's (Spain, Netherlands etc). But coming back to present day, it's the actions that we do now that in my opinion matter the most. And US keeps failing on those still, time after time. European countries are in…

The US military is an enormous polluter, even on native soil. Places like Hanford site — which is still undergoing cleanup after being decommissioned in the 1970s — are well known, but there are thousands of places the military has ravaged. One good example is the naval training range the island of Vieques outside Puerto Rico [1], abandoned in the early 2000s and today a superfund site; they're still cleaning that up…

The EPA likes to get in on the action, too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Gold_King_Mine_waste_wate...

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