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Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

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Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#71

Post by coldtea »

netcan wrote: post #10

This is (hopefully not) obnoxiously off-topic... As a Hebrew speaker, I wish the "shibboleth" idiom (which is a good one) was translated, rather than transliterated. laoned idioms are inherently exotic, and this one is worth demystifying It means any choice of word (or pronunciation, in the literal example) that clearly identifies the speaker's group affiliations. A good modern example is "LondonDerry/Derry. This'd b…

>As a Hebrew speaker, I wish the "shibboleth" idiom (which is a good one) was translated, rather than transliterated. laoned idioms are inherently exotic, and this one is worth demystifying

Well, it was neither translated, nor transliterated. It was adopted as an english word, with its own dictionary definition and everything.

The definition happens to coincide with the Hebrew, but it could just as well not (there are loaners that have changed definition).

As far as an English speaking person hears the term, whether they know the meaning or not, it's just any other English word -- they can ask people for its meaning, look it up in the dictionary, etc.

The Hebrew origins don't come into play at all, except when one specifically looks for the history/etymology of the term. But it can totally be used as a black box word too.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#72

Post by [deleted] »

aasasd wrote: post #61
netcan wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Terms become terms and we can't change it. I just meant that idioms tend to be richer when the source is material. Point taken on finding an example that everyone understands. Any political context creates shibboleths by the dozen. The UK is good for making ones that stick around. "Nationist" and "National" political movements, for example, are apposite (and opposing).

Yeah no, don't do that. After reading about the Derry thing, I realized I better forget all about it and never mention it in the presence of an Irishman, a Northern-Irishman or anyone else from GB, and especially not botch my reference to any one side. ‘Shibboleth’ has the nice quality that no Ephraimites recently had, or are likely to soon have, misfortunes because of the phenomenon, and the whole affair was three t…

[deleted]

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#73

Post by coldtea »

FabHK wrote: post #38
leipert wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I am a native German speaker, and apart from grammar (people usually have a bit of trouble with cases, articles and particles) there are a few nice words to trip people up: - Streichholzschächtelchen (match box – diminutive): https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:De-Streichholzsch%C3... - Austrians use a lot of different words, my favorite being Jänner and not Januar for the month January - Swiss German: Chuch…

Allegedly, during the invasion of the Netherlands by Nazi forces commencing on May 10th, 1940, the Dutch used "Scheveningen" or "beschuit" as a shibboleth to distinguish German speakers from Dutch. I don't quite understand that, as most Germans don't speak Dutch, full stop, and it would be trivial to distinguish them thereby, while presumably if you have gone to the trouble of learning Dutch, you'd know how to pronou…

>while presumably if you have gone to the trouble of learning Dutch, you'd know how to pronounce "Scheveningen"

The idea behind that scheme was not about people "knowing" how to pronounce or not.

The idea was that native speakers would pronounce it differently than people who merely learned the language as foreigners -- which could then be identified even if it was subtle.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#74

Post by coldtea »

FabHK wrote: post #70
indocomsoft wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s because in German, sch is one consonant (like sh in English), while in Dutch, sch is a consonant cluster of s-ch, ch as in Loch Ness.

Yes, but presumably you’d learn that when you learn Dutch. I maintain that it is easier for a German speaker to learn the pronunciation of “Scheveningen” than to learn the entire Dutch language, and that L1 German speakers that learned Dutch as a foreign language will pronounce “Scheveningen” correctly, or, at any rate, not make the trivial mistake of analysing “sch” as the trigraph "sch," pronounced [ʃ], rather than…

>Yes, but presumably you’d learn that when you learn Dutch.

Learning it theoretically (and adapting to it somewhat) and being able to fluidly pronounce it as a native are two different things...

>and that L1 German speakers that learned Dutch as a foreign language will pronounce “Scheveningen” correctly

Technically correctly. Not natively correctly. There would still be differences...

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#76

Post by Shorel »

notacoward wrote: post #67

I've found that pretending to know someone's profession, or one related to it, is generally a very bad approach. It's easily seen through, at which point you're worse off than before. Instead, what I do with members of other professions is try to impress on them that I do not know their business but respect its complexity and our roles within the scenario. Whether it's a doctor or a plumber or even a computer technic…

Even if you actually know the profession, their reaction is not good. Your approach seems more practical.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#77

Post by seanwilson »

Somewhat related, but when working with new clients for freelance work, I usually ask them if they can write complex Excel functions, make their own website with HTML and if they know any programming languages. After that, I adjust my level of jargon and what analogies I use to explain stuff to match what they know.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#78

Post by ljm »

dmitryminkovsky wrote: post #58
netcan wrote: post #10

This is (hopefully not) obnoxiously off-topic... As a Hebrew speaker, I wish the "shibboleth" idiom (which is a good one) was translated, rather than transliterated. laoned idioms are inherently exotic, and this one is worth demystifying It means any choice of word (or pronunciation, in the literal example) that clearly identifies the speaker's group affiliations. A good modern example is "LondonDerry/Derry. This'd b…

> Shiboleths can have serious weight Yeah "shibboleth" carries a really serious (life/death) connotation for me as well. Was confused to see it here like this.

I think Inglorious Basterds captures this quite well, in the underground bar scene where the use of three fingers to gesture ‘three’, as opposed to a thumb and two fingers. That blew the Brits’ cover and resulted in their deaths.

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#79

Post by mwattsun »

The misuse of slang is probably the most common indicator that a person is not really a member of the group. Or not even slang, but just using the wrong word. For example of both, I know a businessman who retired recently and decided in retirement to present himself as a laid back ex-hippie (I live in Santa Cruz - a good choice of persona for this area) He grew his hair long and started wearing tie-die. Except, he referred to himself as a "hipster" back in the 60's who did a lot of "psychotropics" instead of psychedelics. It was obvious to me at least that he was never a hippie in the 60's and this was borne out later

Re: Shibboleths that get you past the initial script stage

#80

Post by 80386 »

netcan wrote: post #10

This is (hopefully not) obnoxiously off-topic... As a Hebrew speaker, I wish the "shibboleth" idiom (which is a good one) was translated, rather than transliterated. laoned idioms are inherently exotic, and this one is worth demystifying It means any choice of word (or pronunciation, in the literal example) that clearly identifies the speaker's group affiliations. A good modern example is "LondonDerry/Derry. This'd b…

> As a Hebrew speaker, I wish the "shibboleth" idiom (which is a good one) was translated, rather than transliterated. laoned idioms are inherently exotic, and this one is worth demystifying

Until a few decades ago, it was assumed in educated Protestant society that everyone was familiar with the Bible. So a lot of biblical idioms are still present.

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