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Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

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Re: Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

#71

Is anyone else getting bored with this kind of “analysis”? Yes—people in the 99.9th percentile are significantly more than people in the 99th percentile. “Never mind the 0.01 percent. Let’s talk about the 0.0001%!” would be even more crazy, considering the exponential distribution of wealth.

> Is anyone else getting bored with this kind of

People who write don't earn a great deal of money. Nor (typically) do they have the potential to do so. Other professions can at least dream that they will hit it big or earn a good steady income if that is not the case. People at the bottom can't even dream but 'they know their place'. News articles with head lines like that draw readers sure but I think it's more than that ('people who write...'). This is human nature. Very generally the middle class that are employed and not taking on credit card debt and spending over their means (which they do) don't care that there are super wealthy people.

What is to stop people in some dirt poor foreign country from talking about how it's not fair that people in the US, even our poorest, very likely have it better than they do? (Well nobody other than the writers in our country will say anything and quite frankly nobody in our country would care enough to give them anything that we have so it doesn't matter). When was the last time you heard of a tax specifically to help people in dirt poor countries? (Not talking about aid but actual 'we will take your income', well never).

You know what has changed more than anything? What we know about what others are earning and what they have that is what material goods.

As many older HN readers will probably agree when I was growing up their were the Rockefellers, Howard Hughes and maybe a few other people. There were movie stars and the Beverly Hillbillies. You didn't really care that they were wealthy it was just the way it was. There was no revolt of the masses. Sure there are more people will money today but what there is grossly more of is attention and that it's in everyone's face (and of course the people who write and broadcast about it).

Re: Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the point exactly? No policy is going to change the fact that the natural equilibrium for such systems is a Pareto distribution, AKA it follows a power law. We can definitely hope to change the constants of the distribution, but to fundamentally change such a distribution would really be a fool's errand.

It is not a universal principle that wealth must follow a power law, and even if it was, the coefficient need not be so extreme. The wealth inequality in America is higher than it has ever been. This did not come about naturally.

Which is why taxation needs to get higher for higher incomes (no matter what kind), which would flatten that curve. Otherwise societies always end up with only token upward mobility and de-facto aristocracy.

Often taxation gets to its highest point at the basically high average household level though. In Germany for example top income tax is ~41% and already starts at about 4500EUR / month.

But actually rich people pay a maximum of 25% on interest/shares etc because they don't actually have a salary.

Basically politicians and common people are being played. The 'richer' middle level incomes are played against the lowest income levels while the really top levels in Enterprises and the Ultra-rich are never mentioned. On the contrary, companies especially play the 'jobs' card to get to pay even less taxes.

Re: Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

#73

Here in Denmark the highest tax bracket applies to almost 10% of the Danish population. The Top 1%, Top 0.01% and billionaires are not taxed more than the Top 10%. I belong to the Top 10% and I'm fine with that. Why do Americans focus so much on the "ultra-rich" and the billionaires when you can build a successful welfare state by just taxing the Top 10% a little more?

In America the top 1% control about 40% of the money, with most of that, as this article shows going to the wealthiest. In Denmark its roughly 20% of the money to the top 1% - the lowest inequality of any of the OECD nations. At the same time we have political movements dedicated to wrecking our social safety nets in an attempt to get us back to "The Jungle" style nastiness - often funded by that same fraction of a percent at the top.

So, some bitterness there. :D

Or, more simply, your country doesn't have anywhere near the same systemic and cultural issues the US does currently.

Re: Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

#74
post #21

My issue with all of these discussions is that they invariably present ideas that are just too complicated, and our tax code is just too complicated as it is. Create a system that can be applied evenly, and fairly, from the top to the bottom and then I think you’ve got a great and novel idea.

The Fair Tax plan was a neat idea. Tax everyone at X percent, while giving everyone back Y dollars per month as a form of UBI. The values of X and Y are chosen so those below the poverty line gain more money than they are taxed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax

I was a huge fan of this concept. It has been invented independently by people on the right (Milton Friedman) and the left. But unfortunately that is not how politics works. Politics is selling a particular group an advantage over the majority in exchange for votes. That is true both for the left and the right, the only difference is which groups they target.

And a fair tax is just too simple. Politicians wouldn't have anything to sell anymore...

Re: Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the point exactly? No policy is going to change the fact that the natural equilibrium for such systems is a Pareto distribution, AKA it follows a power law. We can definitely hope to change the constants of the distribution, but to fundamentally change such a distribution would really be a fool's errand.

As someone who holds a master's degree in economics, and is getting a PhD in genetics, I can tell you virtually everyone studying the "soft" sciences conflates observations with natural laws. There is nothing stating that a Pareto distribution is optimal. It's only a distribution based on observation, and it just happens. The underlying mechanisms are not immutable.

Eh, what are you saying is mutable here, exactly?

The only way of getting a 0.5 Gini ("absolute equality") is if everyone is earning the same, which is ridiculous. As soon as you throw any randomness in there, well, all of a sudden you get inequality.

Next, there are the (totally reasonable) winner-take-all mechanics of skilled labor. Are you a better CEO (where "better" here could just mean better at pitching/selling/hiring/picking a market)? Then you can end up capturing all of the market share vs your competitors. That ends up paying nicely.

You still could have rent-seekers and people who cheat, but from the article itself, the top driver is differentiation based on skills.

Don't like winner-take-all mechanics? Introduce income pooling. But I wouldn't expect that to be the revolutionary change people are looking for, just a way to guarantee people on the same skill ladder end up in roughly the same outcome bracket. I don't think "guarantee top ivy leaguers make >$400k/yr" is what you're looking for.

Re: Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

#76

>Smith, Yagan, Zidar, and Zwick find that the 1 percent’s income is being driven by owner-managers, mostly of small and medium-sized companies—specifically S corporations, partnerships, and limited liability companies. These are talented managers: the researchers find that profits of companies run by these 1 percent-ers are far higher than those of businesses owned by people in the top 5-–10 percent >“The demand for…

> Even our poor have modern conveniences, access to emergency healthcare

It'd be far nicer if even the poor had access to non-emergency medicine, too, though.

Ironically, the poor tend to contribute a disproportionate amount of their income to things like taxes and infrastructure, being without the ability to shield their "wealth".

Re: Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

#77
post #32
post #9

Wasn’t that always the case. Nobody cares about the guy earning 250k/y. It’s the handful of people who control 90% of all wealth. “1%” was a catchy soundbite but it was always the 0.0001%

Unfortunately that's not always the case. Living in Germany, I've heard and read (good example /de/ subreddit) loads of hate against middle and upper-middle class people. People who are nowhere near close to being rich. This is also a group that's being taxed as much as the actual rich, or in practice even more, because the rich can afford to "optimise" their taxes. There's a sizeable group of people that just cannot…

Lots of people "work hard", and almost none of them are rich. So obviously it's not "working hard" that gives you that money.

At some point very early on, your money starts making money and you cease to do "work" to make that number grow. It seems inappropriate to equivocate capital gains with gainful employment.

Re: Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

#78
post #9

Wasn’t that always the case. Nobody cares about the guy earning 250k/y. It’s the handful of people who control 90% of all wealth. “1%” was a catchy soundbite but it was always the 0.0001%

The answer I think depends on where their allegiances lie. The reason why the reactionary “PMC” [0] has become something of a meme is because you’ll often encounter people at this level of affluence who defend the ultrawealthy and their predation of the poor through things like the private healthcare system in the US.

From a material perspective, it makes sense that they behave this way (the ultrawealthy are more likely to sign their paychecks and they’re less exposed to many of the harms present further down the income chain), but does allow for a politics of resentment to develop around the position they occupy in society. Most working class people are unlikely to encounter a billionaire in their lifetimes, but will come across many upper income individuals who will tell them (either directly or indirectly) that they deserve their low station or that nothing can really be done to improve their material standing.

[0] https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/on-the-origi...

Re: Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

#79
post #28

I’d love to see an analysis of who the top 0.01% are, in terms of income. My guess is the people who make the list this year, drop off the next and never end up on it again. The top people (again income) are the folks that sell their company or equity stake. It’s a huge windfall, but they never make that much again.

My guess is that such a list is probably mostly the same as the wealthiest people due to the nature of capital gains. If you have a billion dollars, you get probably 10 million a year with the most conservative investments (in reality it's probably closer to a 5-15% rate of return). On top of that, the favorable tax treatment of long term capital gains means you pay way less in taxes than the schmuck who gets paid 10 million a year as salary.

Re: Never mind the 1 percent Let's talk about the 0.01 percent (2017)

#80

Is anyone else getting bored with this kind of “analysis”? Yes—people in the 99.9th percentile are significantly more than people in the 99th percentile. “Never mind the 0.01 percent. Let’s talk about the 0.0001%!” would be even more crazy, considering the exponential distribution of wealth.

It kinda reminds me of this visualisation from some survey of Americans in 2011. https://www.businessinsider.com/inequality-is-worse-than-you...

The respondents weren't opposed to an exponential distribution as such; but the images of the disparities between what they thought was ideal, what they thought the reality is, and what the surveyors say the distribution is is still striking.

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