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Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

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Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not why cashiers are there. The cashier is there for when you decide to pay for your goods. If you try and walk out with them, the cashier will not stop you. For legal reasons, even the security probably won't touch you. The reason most people who don't steal isn't the punishment, it's because they don't want to steal. Likewise, removing the fine doesn't make a late book not late. People do not have some inher…

Cashier apparently is here because is the substantial amount of people, who will steal if not watched, but won't take a risk of cashier will confront them or will call a police.

So how do you explain self-checkout which is not watched nearly as carefully?

It's not a binary outcome. Self-checkout increases shrinkage, of course there are people who steal when not watched as carefully.

But the vast majority of people walking in a store are not stopped from stealing because of the odds of being caught.

Like, stores would literally not work if that was the case. Margins these stores have a razor thin. The amount of shrinkage they'd have to deal with, and the amount they'd have to invest in LP would be insane.

Similarly, the vast majority of people who are borrowing books would not steal them instead just because there was no late fee (it's not like there's no due date).

And similarly, libraries would not work if that was not the case. When you keep a book, it still has to be replaced before someone else can use it, and if you don't pay the late fees/replacement fees the library either eats the whole cost, or sends it to a collection agency and eats part of the cost.

How many libraries could afford to deal with a populace hellbent on stealing books regardless of late fees?

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#72

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…

I agree that most want to be a good member of the library, but what do you do about a few bad actors? (I haven't read the policy but I guess there must still be some restrictions to prevent abuse.)

You buy replacements. It's not fundamentally different from books getting generally worn out. Lending limits on categories of items effectively upper bound the cost of each individual bad actor to not prohibitively expensive.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that most want to be a good member of the library, but what do you do about a few bad actors? (I haven't read the policy but I guess there must still be some restrictions to prevent abuse.)

You buy replacements. It's not fundamentally different from books getting generally worn out. Lending limits on categories of items effectively upper bound the cost of each individual bad actor to not prohibitively expensive.

Also I bet they deny check out until late's are retured, maybe with some buffer for lost or cant return it yet but will. I dont see it mentioned in the article.

Smart move imho. Bravo CPL.

I bet the same result happens elsewhere independent of assumptions about desire to pay.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#74

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…

I agree that most want to be a good member of the library, but what do you do about a few bad actors? (I haven't read the policy but I guess there must still be some restrictions to prevent abuse.)

Generally you are blocked from renting more books if you do not pay full amount of lost or not returned book after some point. My library allows 10 books at a time so if I don’t return due books then they put my account on hold.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#75
post #69

Some of the comments here are surprising. Imo people who come to library to read books want to be a good member of the library. By assuming they will stop returning books due to no fees is just assuming worst of them. I was surprised when my county in California decided to get rid of all the fees. I had 5 books due and all my fees were forgiven. I donated way more to the library just because of this change. I was wor…

Fees are not a significant part of a libraries revenue

Yeh I guess that is why it was easy for them to experiment with it.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cashier apparently is here because is the substantial amount of people, who will steal if not watched, but won't take a risk of cashier will confront them or will call a police.

So how do you explain self-checkout which is not watched nearly as carefully? It's not a binary outcome. Self-checkout increases shrinkage, of course there are people who steal when not watched as carefully. But the vast majority of people walking in a store are not stopped from stealing because of the odds of being caught. Like, stores would literally not work if that was the case. Margins these stores have a razor…

>Self-checkout increases shrinkage

If this is true, and I'm not sure it is, I bet the money they lose to theft is dwarfed by the amount they save by laying off most of their checkers.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#77
The public libraries in Ireland decided to eliminate fines early this year and it seems to have had the opposite effect. In some cases, people don’t seem to return books at all. I’d placed a hold on a book, a couple of months ago and it looks like the people who’d borrowed the only two copies of the book in the system haven’t returned it in over 8 months now.

I‘d initially thought that eliminating fines was a great idea, but since then I’ve changed my opinions on it.

Perhaps a better way to go about it would be to have a month (or 3 months) long jubilee when people could return the books they haven’t returned in years without any penalties and then switch over to a more reasonable and less punitive fine structure. Having zero fines implies that there will always be people who exploit the system. Lower but non-zero fines will be closer to the optima, IMO.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#78
post #7

They should work with the post office to accept returns. I live ten miles away from the closest library. It never makes sense to drive there solely to return a book and I work from home 95% of the time, so I’m rarely there by chance. As a result, i never go to the library. If i could chuck the book into my mailbox to return it I’d stop by more often.

In my childhood my city had a "bookbus" driving around to the outskirts of the city so people didn't have to travel to the main library. You could pick up reservations, browse through a selection, and return books. It was a brilliant concept, and I was waiting for it faithfully every week. If I wasn't there the librarian/driver would ask the next week what I had been doing since I didn't turn up. He was a kind man and often had recommendations for me. I owe that man a lot for the escape he provided for a child from a troubled home.

Many years ago, as a teenager, I went down to the main library to return some books I had borrowed. I knew I was late and I knew I had to pay a fee because of it, but I'd rather pay the fees with my savings than lose access to the library.

The librarian at the desk is the same man that has been driving the bus for as long as I can remember. He takes the books, taps at the keyboard a bit, hand me my receipt, smiles and wish me a good day. I ponder for a few seconds about the late fees, but decide against just walking away - I really don't want it to somehow result in suspending my card. So I tell him that I believe there is some late fees that I need to pay. His takes off his glasses and his face turns serious and say "Someone that has been visiting my bookbus since he was about this high (signaling around waist), don't have to pay just because his miss the return date by a week. You returned them, that's what matters".

I still think about this, and if he is still alive I wish I could somehow tell him this story. He was passionate about his job and he made a difference.

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#79

I think what's being missed in the discussion on HN is the reason CPL eliminated fines. It's not about the money, nor is it about getting the books back. It's to improve access to the library system. CPL did a study of who held the cards with suspended privileges because of late fees, and found out that the vast majority were people in poor neighborhoods, and of those the vast majority were children. Now with the new…

So, I'm curious. Did they require that the books be returned in order to open up borrowing again?

Like, just, "please bring the books back, we'll disappear the fees and just take 'em back and all is forgiven"? Or did they just... reactivate the accounts and hope that history won't repeat?

(Genuinely curious -- the articles I've read on the subject, like this one, are all excited about more library everything, but quite light on real info)

Re: Chicago book returns surge 240% after city eliminates fines

#80
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how does the library system reward good actors One thought would be to take a page from airlines and institute the equivalent of status tiers. For example, returning books on time gets you further towards the front of the line when waiting for items on-hold and earlier access to new releases.

Or perhaps just more concurrently checked out books. Increase your maximum books for good behavior, decrease it for bad behavior (perhaps minimum of 3 books, maximum of 50 or something like that). Also, show the current no-late steak when checking out books and perhaps publicly display a list of everyone who has a perfect record for a period of time. Also, as for the stick, perhaps temporary suspensions for consisten…

My library (which does still have late fees) does this.

You can get 5 books at a time, initially, and you can keep them for 21 days, and you can renew by phone once per book (so long as they're not on reserve for someone else).

If you have had your card for >90 days, and have borrowed and returned >10 books, you instead are allowed 20 books at a time (no more than 5 per topic/category), and can renew twice before returning. But if you run up too many fees, you go back to the 5-book-limit.

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