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Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

theamericanconservative.com

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Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#71

Post by nudiustertian »

throwaway010718 wrote: post #67

It can be difficult to predict the knowledge gaps in a high school kid, even the "intelligent" ones. A smart friend told me that a score of 800 is all it took to "pass the SAT". He said you could get into the best colleges with that score as long as your grades were good, etc. So we put no effort into studying for the exam. We regretfully, conflated the combined score with the individual section scores. We also had a…

> Perhaps with social media and the internet it is unlikely any student would be this misinformed.

graduated a few years ago

how i wish that were true

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#72

Post by jlev1 »

Glyptodon wrote: post #14

Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors? The real…

This is just... not accurate. The closest I can agree with your description is that (a) getting help on specific questions about the class, is not highly differentiated from (b') having conversations about the class (or about your studies) with the professor. But (b') talking about school and (b) schmoozing are two different things.

Speaking from personal experience (I'm an academic in my late 20s / early 30s, and I know a lot of fellow academics, and we talk about things like teaching and office hours), office hours are for helping students. They're not some kind of country club -- I spend my office hours working on math problems with students, giving study advice, and sometimes talking about my students' academic plans (e.g. recommending other classes for them to take, or telling them about resources they can access on campus).

The injustice in this situation isn't that "rich students are getting unfair help", it's that poor students aren't accessing this appropriate help. Going to office hours, asking professors for help, asking for the occasional (well-justified) extension -- these are not "entitled", they are all perfectly appropriate things to do.

(To add, I see a weird vibe of resentment running through this and a handful of other posts. For what it's worth, I will say that academics basically universally loathe students who suck up to them and complain about their grades. So we're agreed in that...)

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#73

Post by ACow_Adonis »

jlev1 wrote: post #69
ACow_Adonis wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic in characterizing those actions as 'just wanting to be helpful', but until I was a bit more world weary, i would have expected what your professor did in that story to be grounds for instant firing and utterly unacceptable (and would have expected everyone else to share my opinion), as it strikes at the very core of the integrity of an education system.

The vehemence of this response surprises me. First, from the anecdote, there's no particular reason to think this student was the only one who was given a chance to take a make-up test. Second, re: the 'integrity of an education system', there are already all kinds of problems with using tests and exams to evaluate student skill, and one serious flaw is how sensitive they are to random fluctuations -- like being tire…

You misunderstand (or perhaps I'm miscommunicating) if it comes across as vehemence. I meant it purely as a statement of fact.

I'm well aware of the problems of testing and assessment and standard education structures.

But the point I was trying to convey was that the way I was brought up, and the popular image of testing and grades and meritocracy I was indoctrinated with, would frame what your teacher did as cheating/academic dishonesty.

The idea that such an activity would be done (and not be seen by everyone else as an immediately fireable offence) would have literally an almost unthinkable thought until my late 20s/early 30s and I got a bit more exposure to the world and how academia/ society/ humanity actually works.

I think that's a highly relevant point/peice of context when responding to a story about how young students enter these institutions with different assumptions, experience and worldviews...

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#74

Post by jlev1 »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #73
jlev1 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vehemence of this response surprises me. First, from the anecdote, there's no particular reason to think this student was the only one who was given a chance to take a make-up test. Second, re: the 'integrity of an education system', there are already all kinds of problems with using tests and exams to evaluate student skill, and one serious flaw is how sensitive they are to random fluctuations -- like being tire…

You misunderstand (or perhaps I'm miscommunicating) if it comes across as vehemence. I meant it purely as a statement of fact. I'm well aware of the problems of testing and assessment and standard education structures. But the point I was trying to convey was that the way I was brought up, and the popular image of testing and grades and meritocracy I was indoctrinated with, would frame what your teacher did as cheati…

I see, that makes sense. Though the phrasing of "how the world works" still makes it sound like you think it's shady and unethical, when I don't (necessarily) think it is.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#75

Post by akhilcacharya »

amalcon wrote: post #55
Glyptodon wrote: post #14

Some of these issues extend beyond such narrow groups. Office hours as a concept are easily one of the weirdest and most confusing things ever because they simultaneously encompass at least two entirely different disharmonious concepts. Are they (a) time set aside so those who need significant help can get it without disrupting class, or (b) time aside so students can chat and schmooze with their professors? The real…

I remember one friend back in college who constantly asked for -- and received -- deadline extensions on assignments. Usually, there was not what I would consider a good reason for this (illness, family emergency, etc) but rather something under that student's control (social obligations, just not being happy with the work so far, things like that). For a while, I felt like that student had a superpower: if I asked f…

....what sort of institution was this?

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#76

Post by akhilcacharya »

zbobet2012 wrote: post #70
snagglegaggle wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the fuck is this? I had to leave due to mental health issues that I wasn't able to get documented at the time, and have been having huge issues returning ever since. Fuck all of this.

You've just proven his point though. Authority figures are just... people. And some people are quite nice and understanding and some people are grade capital a assholes. Oh and any bureaucratic process is intentionally trying to weed you out.

I went to a large state school. This would absolutely not fly in any of the classes I took. It might work in a upper level graduate course but that’s an entirely different situation.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#77

Post by akhilcacharya »

whymauri wrote: post #37
droithomme wrote: post #32

It seems to me that this group appellated the "Privileged Poor" - disadvantaged poor children who have graduated from the most elite private preparatory institutions in the nation - are an incredibly small group, perhaps 0.001% of students, and well below the noise floor of any sort of meaningful statistical analysis. The other groups the article contends with, being the elite and the not elite, are much larger group…

They are a small group in the overall population but not at elite schools.

Why do they matter more than the vast majority that..don’t go to elite schools?

What level of filter bubble thinking is this?

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#78

Post by elamje »

As a mid twenty year old, I have to say there are a lot of similarities between professors/TA/office hours, and recruiting/working.

When I was in undergraduate, I desperately needed to get help at office hours many times, but never felt comfortable doing it, sometimes feeling I would annoy the professor. Likewise, that’s how I treated recruiters for the most part. Like they were some robot that doesn’t understand my situation and are only helping because they have to.

Fast forward to the working world, suddenly your manager and peers are all trying to work together for the most part. Likewise recruiters are constantly hitting you up, some causally too. It changed my view of what school could have been once I realized that my bosses and recruiters were just peers at the end of the day.

I could and should have been more confident going to as many office hours as needed, but you know, hindsight is 20/20.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#79

Post by jariel »

droithomme wrote: post #56
ElFitz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of this is culturally specific. I went in the same middle and high schools as my classmates (none American nor in the US), yet our behaviors towards teachers couldn't have been more different.

Public schools in the US and most religious upbringings (not all) teach blind submission and deference to authority. Students who question things too much are deemed troublemakers obstructing the teacher's valuable dictation time. Repeated offenders are referred to a psychiatrist for a ADHD referral and subsequent drugging and parents who object get a DCS referral and their kids rehomed in foster care where they are…

I think you may have it backwards: Schools in France for example don't tolerate a lot of fuss. They are old school in most ways - students listen, make notes, teachers are in charge. I'm a North American who did Grad School in Europe and was amazed at how quiet and deferential the students were there. I was considerably more gregarious.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#80

Post by anon9001 »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #57
friendlybus wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The whole concept of "discussing your grade" is another overlap. People from a certain strata do this constantly and it's a perfect example of something bluring (a) and (b). I've seen this happen with working class people in high universities. It's not a class issue, you can learn it from others.

Except it is a class issue: just like you CAN learn dining etiquette from others, unless you have been presented with the idea that dining etiquette is something that you should/need to learn, there is no obvious way to pick up it's even a thing that you should be focusing on, because everything in the culture places euphamisms and misdirection between the phenomenon and what's really going on, and you've never even…

It also took me a while to realize that things don't run on a merit system.

My theory is this: If you're smart enough to think that merit should matter, it's easy to fall into the trap of meritocracy. If you look around and realize, obviously, that this is not a meritocracy, then value must be derived from something that isn't merit.

Spoiler: It's relationships that matter, not merit.

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