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Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

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Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#71

Post by nlfwhulsdhouv »

justinator wrote: post #65
nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I 100% agree it's played out, and was never totally true in the first place. However, compared to a lot of other sports that are complex and require a significant amount of equipment, climbing culture is a lot more weary of throwing money at the problem. Critically, a lot of serious climbers are willing to trade more money for more time climbing by selecting less-traditional careers or focusing less on corporate ladd…

I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know. I see it more that adult life is delayed, since there's the opportunity and privilege to delay it. It's kinda rich kids acting like their poor kids, 'cause that's kind of a cool thing to do. Not everyone of course, but those $100,000 tricked out vans don't pay for themselves. Lots of c…

Again, I think you're making a fair point about the intersection of privilege and the 'dirtbag' lifestyle, but that's not really what I'm getting at. I'm just commenting that those people with 100k$ vans are sneered at pretty heavily in climbing culture. A lot of other sports cultures are the opposite, where they sneer at people who don't have the 'right' gear. Lots of rich golfers for instance that don't want to interact with the poors and run exclusive clubs partially for that purpose.

Regardless, any leisure time at all is a privilege. Working-class and poor people largely don't have time or money to do _anything_ at all, climbing or otherwise.

I also think you're putting a little too much value on 'adult life'. We can and should work on allowing more people from more diverse socio-economic backgrounds to enjoy more leisure time, not criticize the people that can.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#72

Post by perfect_wave »

watwut wrote: post #66
justinator wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know. I see it more that adult life is delayed, since there's the opportunity and privilege to delay it. It's kinda rich kids acting like their poor kids, 'cause that's kind of a cool thing to do. Not everyone of course, but those $100,000 tricked out vans don't pay for themselves. Lots of c…

> I dunno, climbing gear isn't all that expensive and there's not THAT much gear you need - you can fit it all in a backpack, you know. Wut? Not expensive compared to what exactly? You know climbers are leaving material behind in mountains and trips themselves are expensive? Why would "fit into backpack" be an argument for why something is cheap?

To be honest he's not wrong. I bought my trad rack (widgets that go in cracks and carabiners for them) for around $2,000. Rope, shoes, helmet, harness, backpacks, etc on top of that is probably another $2,000 at most. Camping gear is another ~$1,000.

Most of this stuff (aside from the rope) will last for many years. Occasionally I'll lose a cam out climbing which is $50-80 to replace, but only happens a few times a season.

Compare this to skiing or mountain biking and you can see how climbing is a vastly cheaper sport.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#73

Post by perfect_wave »

hodgesrm wrote: post #47
nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rock climbing has a very long and storied history of climbers living on absolute scraps to get by, just so they can climb more. This persists in the culture to this day. Yvonne Chouinard, depicted in the article, was one of those climbers. He tells stories of eating catfood and stealing leftovers from the hotels in Yosemite Valley to survive. While you're right that making money helps people live an easier life more…

Or google 'dirtbag climbing'. Fred Beckey was one of the masters. I heard a story that he didn't even have an address for much of his life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRfJGmXg4Yg

There's a great great movie about him that came out a year ago.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#74

Post by _trampeltier »

omegaham wrote: post #58
hogFeast wrote: post #13

Has anyone else found that people who are really into rock climbing always feel the need to bring climbing up?

Are climbers any different from any of the other hobbyist subcultures out there? We don't have as much climbing where I live, but we have a lot of cyclists, and yes, they're vocal.

Climbing is a bit different I think from all other sports. In running or cycling, if you are good, you are fast, if you are not so good, you are a bit slower, but you did the same track. In climbing every boulder or route is different. And if you are not a really strong climber, you can't never ever climb for ex. "Action Direct" (you can't even leave the ground).

I don't think the companys are innovative. There are so many things you could better and safer than todays gear.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#75

Post by majos »

shantly wrote: post #21
hogFeast wrote: post #13

Has anyone else found that people who are really into rock climbing always feel the need to bring climbing up?

It the new skiing. Or maybe sailing and golfing, to a smaller extent. A thing well-off professionals go do (and yes, not just them, same as the other things) then come back and talk about.

But climbing’s a lot cheaper than those things. If you’re in a midsize city you can get an unlimited gym membership for maybe $50 per month. Shoes, generously will run you $200 per year. That’s $800 per year all-in. The equipment alone, even without the travel or membership expenses, seems higher for the other hobbies listed.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#76

Post by sharadov »

nlfwhulsdhouv wrote: post #25
Mikeb85 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sometimes people will do extraordinary things without the motivation of money Spending money and doing things will always be more fun than earning money. People earn money to spend it on pursuits like rock climbing, even if climbing the rock itself is free, buying the equipment and taking time off to climb it costs money, so those extraordinary things were done thanks to an earlier motivation to make money.

Rock climbing has a very long and storied history of climbers living on absolute scraps to get by, just so they can climb more. This persists in the culture to this day. Yvonne Chouinard, depicted in the article, was one of those climbers. He tells stories of eating catfood and stealing leftovers from the hotels in Yosemite Valley to survive. While you're right that making money helps people live an easier life more…

Surfing has the same history, they lived on beaches, ate coconuts and fished, or relied on the generosity of locals, when these places were still not "surfing destinations". Everything cool "skateboarding", "snowboarding", "BMX-biking" started with a rag-tag band of individuals, who were scrappy and had pure love for the activity.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#77

Post by thrower123 »

hogFeast wrote: post #13

Has anyone else found that people who are really into rock climbing always feel the need to bring climbing up?

It seems to be one of those hobbies that becomes completely all-consuming. Every person I've ever known who gets into rock climbing, it's all they ever do; every weekend they go climbing, they talk about climbing, they get really into optimizing their climbing gear.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#78

Post by perfect_wave »

kyleblarson wrote: post #20

The comma between 'free' and 'solo' in the first sentence is unnecessary and could actually imply a different style of climbing, rope soloing. see https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/keita-kurakami-makes-fi...

On the top of solo, free climbing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CikzYN0z4zU

Pete Whitaker's 1 day solo, free ascent of Freerider, the same route that Honnold free solo'd in just a few hours.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#79

Post by MiguelVieira »

a1pulley wrote: post #4

"And to return to Alex Honnold, perhaps the most important lesson a free-market loving economist should draw is that sometimes people will do extraordinary things without the motivation of money." My dad likes to visit the same coffee shop every morning, where he sees more or less the same people. He likes to show his friends pictures of his son on big routes in Yosemite or the Andes, preferring the ones with danglin…

That reminds me of a sticker I saw on someone’s mountaineering helmet once: “My dream vacation is your worst nightmare”.

Re: Rock climbing and the economics of innovation

#80

Post by patejam »

majos wrote: post #75
shantly wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It the new skiing. Or maybe sailing and golfing, to a smaller extent. A thing well-off professionals go do (and yes, not just them, same as the other things) then come back and talk about.

But climbing’s a lot cheaper than those things. If you’re in a midsize city you can get an unlimited gym membership for maybe $50 per month. Shoes, generously will run you $200 per year. That’s $800 per year all-in. The equipment alone, even without the travel or membership expenses, seems higher for the other hobbies listed.

I agree with you as far as startup costs go.

But your example is only if you only boulder indoors. Costs add up quickly if you want to move outdoors and want the flexibility to do a variety of climbs.

You can easily have a couple thousand dollars in gear.

Harness $70 Belay device $20-150 Rope $150+ (possibly multiple) Quickdraws $10-14 each, you probably want a dozen or so. Some slings Some carabiners

That'll get you outside and working on bolted routes.

Then you get into climbs that don't have man made bolts that you can clip into (trad climbing).

Each piece of protection at this level costs $60-80 new, and you'll probably want like 10 of them at least.

And it goes on and on.

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