Live data from Hacker News

The mindfulness conspiracy

theguardian.com

71–80 of 101 posts

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#71
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhism is not just meditation. It is a big ethical system. By stripping ethics from it you would stop all its activism.

Indeed. But a premise of Buddhism is that the ethics came about as the result of meditation.

Please cite a source for this. Ethics are supposed to help with Buddhist practices towards achieving enlightenment from what I’ve read, not the other way round. If they came about as a result of meditation automatically, the Vinaya would not need to list so many rules for monks and nuns.

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#72
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buddhism is not just meditation. It is a big ethical system. By stripping ethics from it you would stop all its activism.

Indeed. But a premise of Buddhism is that the ethics came about as the result of meditation.

This is not the premise of Buddhism.

Here is a good starting point for understanding what is: http://ftp.budaedu.org/ebooks/pdf/EN074.pdf

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#73
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it though? Do we have any kind of data about it? If it helps one activist and million corporate drones and people looking for status quo, the practice is not on the whole a friend of activism. So what are the numbers?

You are adding the goal of turning status quo warriors into activists. Mindfulness is not designed for that and has never claimed to do that

No, more like not turning activists into content status quo followers. But it's problematic to discern the two.

Perhaps a study on how many activists quit when using or not using mindfulness techniques. Though the confounder is huge, people trying this have some sort of a psychological problem most of the time...

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#74
post #71
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. But a premise of Buddhism is that the ethics came about as the result of meditation.

Please cite a source for this. Ethics are supposed to help with Buddhist practices towards achieving enlightenment from what I’ve read, not the other way round. If they came about as a result of meditation automatically, the Vinaya would not need to list so many rules for monks and nuns.

Neither meditation is said to be sufficient for enlightenment, at least to Buddhists who are not Zen (or Ch'an) practitioners.

We cannot just ask Siddhartha Gautama anymore about the practices and his words were mysticized and changed over generations, as were ethical rules and especially the added monastic rules.

Even Pali Canon is suspect in pieces and that's a more reliable source in the practices he reformed.

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#75
I enjoyed the article. I see mindfulness being a truly helpful tool, but I can also see it as being a bludgeon to numb people to the status quo. The closest thing that I can think of that is similar is physical exercise. Physical exercise is legitimately helpful for maintaining a healthy life for nearly all (if not all) human beings, but there is definitely an industry around getting people to buy things to get them into shape with various probabilities of success. Similar to the author’s assertion about physical exercise, there are credible factors that affect physical health outside of just physical exercise such as diet/nutrition and physical/mental stress. Dealing with these other issues that affect physical health is more difficult and particularly when food-producing industries have a vested interest in getting people to eat more, and employers have a vested interest in getting the most out of their employees.

For what it is worth, The Guardian’s “the long read” section has the following in the subtitle, “The long read In-depth reporting, essays and profiles“ [0]. I think they could stand to add a bit more guidance / messaging to indicate that this piece is separate from their reporting without harming their brand or appearing to insinuate some position over another.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/news/series/the-long-read

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#76
post #27

This is not only ridiculous, it may actually be dangerous journalism because it hints at the fact that this may be a conspiracy by the people 'ruling the world'. And it does that with no real evidence. Anything has pros and cons, even if they are not obvious at a first glance. Doesn't mean there is an obscure element to it.

It doesn't. That's your interpretation reading between the clear lines of text. It is being promoted by high stakes journalism and corporations though. No conspiracy needed, as it brings desired results. The motive is clear and not ulterior. Companies want to keep you happy so that you can be exploited more, and if that falls they want you to internalise blame for your own mental state. If you internalise mindfulness…

> nowhere do I see implication that it is some kind of conspiracy

Except in the title, for starters. And then in your comment, which is built on the assumption that mindfulness benefits corporations. Your whole argument is a stretch at best, but even if I were to concede that companies benefit from this, it is hardly proof that they would actively invest time, money and effort into playing this incredibly long game through which their gains are, at best, indirect. I think you're looking for a conspiracy theory where there is none.

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#77
post #75

I enjoyed the article. I see mindfulness being a truly helpful tool, but I can also see it as being a bludgeon to numb people to the status quo. The closest thing that I can think of that is similar is physical exercise. Physical exercise is legitimately helpful for maintaining a healthy life for nearly all (if not all) human beings, but there is definitely an industry around getting people to buy things to get them…

Mindfulness walks you away from living on autopilot and having your thoughts driven by emotion. If it "numbs" you, I'm not sure what you're doing but it isn't anywhere near awareness.

People seem to really be addicted to this emotionally driven autopilot existence and seem over and over to insist that if you aren't being driven by emotion you're incapable of doing good. It seems to be the next wave of the attempt to reject the – what I would call – first order rationalism which builds its understanding of the world out of what easily fits into straightforward models and rejects or handwaves the existence of everything else.

--

Anything remotely beneficial (any many things that aren't) will have a whole herd of self-help industrialists trying to sell it to you, they're better off ignored. Their presence really has no signal as to the legitimacy to what they're selling.

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#78
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also feel he assumes that there has been a better society somewhere in the past.

Well, in some aspects there has been, in others not. I'm pretty sure a Syrian or a Venezuelan, for example, who was living in way better conditions a decade ago, can very easily agree that this is so. The relative stability and prosperity aside (which itself is arguable, with a declining middle class and stagnant wages, but anyway), I'm not so sure why it's so hard for e.g. many Americans to see this, as if today is…

"Inequality" doesn't mean that even the poorer part of a society has slid backwards.

Considering the situation of Afroamericans, I think you underappreciate the amount of lynchings, violence (not just by police) and structural discrimination that took place. All of that is at a record low, if still much too high.

There is still a lot of work to be done, but undoubtedly their situation has improved, long term.

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#79
post #75

I enjoyed the article. I see mindfulness being a truly helpful tool, but I can also see it as being a bludgeon to numb people to the status quo. The closest thing that I can think of that is similar is physical exercise. Physical exercise is legitimately helpful for maintaining a healthy life for nearly all (if not all) human beings, but there is definitely an industry around getting people to buy things to get them…

Mindfulness walks you away from living on autopilot and having your thoughts driven by emotion. If it "numbs" you, I'm not sure what you're doing but it isn't anywhere near awareness. People seem to really be addicted to this emotionally driven autopilot existence and seem over and over to insist that if you aren't being driven by emotion you're incapable of doing good. It seems to be the next wave of the attempt to…

Thank you for replying 'colechristensen.

The example that I would give is how someone might view homelessness in San Francisco, the first time, the next few times, and then subsequent n times.

The first time a person can truly be utter shock. The next few times might remain uncomfortable, but less of a shock. In the subsequent n times, this person might stop seeing homelessness altogether except for the more gratuitous moments.

I am refining my thoughts here, and the part I see at issue is not mindfulness as a whole, but its partial or selective application. The author’s point is that the parts of mindfulness industry and parts of the economy as a whole benefit from the spread and application of the self-regulation/desensitization of mindfulness and it is in their interest to stop any sort of follow through action that would disrupt the status quo.

By stopping mindfulness at self-regulation and not following through with action, an outside observer would be hard pressed to find the difference between someone practicing this much mindfulness and someone who is just apathetic. I think this is where the calls to emotion that the author makes, and my use of the word “numb” comes in: it is question posed by someone else asking, “Do you not care?” In this way, I think the author is trying to argue that some of parts of this mindfulness industry is effectively selling mass-produced apathy and mass-produced self-regulation/compliance. To take this even farther, I think it would be possible to argue that this combination of desensitization and no-follow-through is basically learned helplessness [0].

To be completely honest with you, after writing all this out, I think the author could have made this point more clear.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

Re: The mindfulness conspiracy

#80
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mindfulness walks you away from living on autopilot and having your thoughts driven by emotion. If it "numbs" you, I'm not sure what you're doing but it isn't anywhere near awareness. People seem to really be addicted to this emotionally driven autopilot existence and seem over and over to insist that if you aren't being driven by emotion you're incapable of doing good. It seems to be the next wave of the attempt to…

Thank you for replying 'colechristensen. The example that I would give is how someone might view homelessness in San Francisco, the first time, the next few times, and then subsequent n times. The first time a person can truly be utter shock. The next few times might remain uncomfortable, but less of a shock. In the subsequent n times, this person might stop seeing homelessness altogether except for the more gratuito…

What you are describing just is not mindfulness as I have seen it described or taught anywhere.

Mindfulness and learned helplessness are diametric opposites.

Post reply on HN