The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht • Hacker News Board

Re: The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht

#71

Post by gimmeThaBeet » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #52

Just 850 million euros of public money to build a mile and a half long tunnel under downtown! (Under a billion euros total.) A bi-level tunnel, with separate express and local levels, and four lanes on each level. By contrast, the SR99 tunnel in Seattle was about 1/3 longer, cost $3-4 billion, depending on how lawsuits shake out, and has half the capacity (two levels with two lanes each). The Big Dig in Boston was th…

So like, what's the deal? Is that level of efficiency common in Netherlands/Europe or were they just as surprised?

What are they doing that they can end up with such a disparate outcome with regards to what most people expect from an ambitious public infrastructure project like that?

Like, I don't even think it's cynicism at this point that when you see they want to do something with the MTA or the Metro, they'll say it'll be X Billion and Y months, and you already know going into it that they're low by a factor of like 2-10x.

Re: The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht

#72

Post by toast0 » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #67

apexalpha wrote: post #2

My hometown! Cool to see it on HN. Maastricht uses to be the only traffic lights on route from Amsterdam to Paris. Yes. Traffic lights on a highway, in the middle of a city. As if the highway in the middle of a city wasn't annoyinh enough the traffic lights added some extra noise, fumes and pollution. The new tunnel has been the most magnificent change I've ever seen. And IIRC the entire project was within budget and…

>Yes. Traffic lights on a highway, in the middle of a city. As if the highway in the middle of a city wasn't annoyinh enough the traffic lights added some extra noise, fumes and pollution. This is an all too common sight in small town America, unfortunately. Highways running directly through small towns seems almost the rule, not the exception.

In small town america, the towns usually grew on the side of the highway. That's where you put the businesses, because that's where the customers are. Then, that's where you put the houses, because it's close to everything. Small towns exist away from the highway, but you're unlikely to see them, and they're more likely to be on the decline, because they're hard to get to. See also towns that die when the highway is moved.

Re: The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht

#73

Post by skrebbel » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

gimmeThaBeet wrote: post #71

rayiner wrote: post #52

Just 850 million euros of public money to build a mile and a half long tunnel under downtown! (Under a billion euros total.) A bi-level tunnel, with separate express and local levels, and four lanes on each level. By contrast, the SR99 tunnel in Seattle was about 1/3 longer, cost $3-4 billion, depending on how lawsuits shake out, and has half the capacity (two levels with two lanes each). The Big Dig in Boston was th…

So like, what's the deal? Is that level of efficiency common in Netherlands/Europe or were they just as surprised? What are they doing that they can end up with such a disparate outcome with regards to what most people expect from an ambitious public infrastructure project like that? Like, I don't even think it's cynicism at this point that when you see they want to do something with the MTA or the Metro, they'll say…

The "Noord-Zuid-Lijn" new metro line in Amsterdam was a classic disaster like so many others.

I guess the answer is "we have fuckups too but not all the time". Could it be the case though that the same holds for the US? I mean usually if something is on time and within budget it doesn't make the news just as much :D

Re: The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht

#74

Post by andrepd » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #28

brnt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars come with HEPA filters. Most (non-Asian) pedestrians don't.

Noise and particulate pollution are perhaps the most external of the negative externalities of automobiles, riders being mostly insulated from their own emissions and from those of their peers. It feels fundamentally unfair.

I had the wonderful privilege of, by pure coincidence, having no cars pass through the road that I walk on my way to work, for about 4 or 5 minutes. I was stunned at the sheer peaceful silence of it. No "broooom" noise, no metallic screeching of brakes, no gasoline smell, no burnt clutch smell, no "dirty auto shop" smell in general. Just the trees rustling softly, faint chatter from the primary school kids some 100m away. I believe we are so used to it that we don't even realise what it is to be in relative silence in the middle of the city. I walk that street every day and I was just stunned to be in that place with no noise. My brain probably associated that walk with that constant background noise, and was freaked out when it wasn't there x)

Electric cars cannot come soon enough.

Re: The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht

#75

Post by jandrese » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

petre wrote: post #10

apexalpha wrote: post #2

My hometown! Cool to see it on HN. Maastricht uses to be the only traffic lights on route from Amsterdam to Paris. Yes. Traffic lights on a highway, in the middle of a city. As if the highway in the middle of a city wasn't annoyinh enough the traffic lights added some extra noise, fumes and pollution. The new tunnel has been the most magnificent change I've ever seen. And IIRC the entire project was within budget and…

Cool. Now try to picture those fumes and pollution in a tunnel.

Well before the end of this tunnel's lifetime most cars will be electric.

Re: The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht

#76

Post by GhettoMaestro » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #52

Just 850 million euros of public money to build a mile and a half long tunnel under downtown! (Under a billion euros total.) A bi-level tunnel, with separate express and local levels, and four lanes on each level. By contrast, the SR99 tunnel in Seattle was about 1/3 longer, cost $3-4 billion, depending on how lawsuits shake out, and has half the capacity (two levels with two lanes each). The Big Dig in Boston was th…

Wow that really is a staggering difference in cost per mile.

Re: The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht

#77

Post by mkohlmyr » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

class4behavior wrote: post #70

rayiner wrote: post #52

Just 850 million euros of public money to build a mile and a half long tunnel under downtown! (Under a billion euros total.) A bi-level tunnel, with separate express and local levels, and four lanes on each level. By contrast, the SR99 tunnel in Seattle was about 1/3 longer, cost $3-4 billion, depending on how lawsuits shake out, and has half the capacity (two levels with two lanes each). The Big Dig in Boston was th…

In the comments right at the top a video was posted about that. Some evidently neoliberal group blaming environmentalists and labor unions for the high construction costs in the US. As if their counter examples, Canada, Japan, and the UK, don't have even better established labor unions and environmental oversight.

I mean I don't think saying that the unions in the US inflate costs is too out there..

Perhaps this is just my perception, but I would say the difference is that European unions (at least northern European, can't speak to the rest of Europe) seem less inclined to engage in dodgy behaviour than their US counterparts. I'm specifically thinking about construction, ports, etc.

I mean the fact that there are people employed to literally do nothing, "because that job used to exist and must never go away" is one example of this. It's not something I've heard of happening in Europe to the same extent it seems to in the US.

Re: The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht

#78

Post by kalium-xyz » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

class4behavior wrote: post #70

rayiner wrote: post #52

Just 850 million euros of public money to build a mile and a half long tunnel under downtown! (Under a billion euros total.) A bi-level tunnel, with separate express and local levels, and four lanes on each level. By contrast, the SR99 tunnel in Seattle was about 1/3 longer, cost $3-4 billion, depending on how lawsuits shake out, and has half the capacity (two levels with two lanes each). The Big Dig in Boston was th…

In the comments right at the top a video was posted about that. Some evidently neoliberal group blaming environmentalists and labor unions for the high construction costs in the US. As if their counter examples, Canada, Japan, and the UK, don't have even better established labor unions and environmental oversight.

We just had a farmers revolt in the Netherlands because of environmentalists groups pushing very restrictive laws which would result in both the amount of cattle in NL being halved and a lot of construction stopping. One major reason they protested was the news reporting that nitrogen kills trees.

It can go both ways, depending on how well things are thought out and executed. We have a lot of people who don't have realistic expectations and don't seem to realize that the Netherlands is largely made up out of artificially build nature which needs to be maintained and kept in check instead of left alone.

Re: The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht

#79

Post by rayiner » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:19 PM UTC

class4behavior wrote: post #70

rayiner wrote: post #52

Just 850 million euros of public money to build a mile and a half long tunnel under downtown! (Under a billion euros total.) A bi-level tunnel, with separate express and local levels, and four lanes on each level. By contrast, the SR99 tunnel in Seattle was about 1/3 longer, cost $3-4 billion, depending on how lawsuits shake out, and has half the capacity (two levels with two lanes each). The Big Dig in Boston was th…

In the comments right at the top a video was posted about that. Some evidently neoliberal group blaming environmentalists and labor unions for the high construction costs in the US. As if their counter examples, Canada, Japan, and the UK, don't have even better established labor unions and environmental oversight.

In broad strokes there are more environmental and labor protections in Canada, Japan, and the U.K., but at the same time, US law has some unique features that have been weaponized. For example, while the US is sometimes relatively more lax on environmental issues in the private sector, it’s very strict for environmental issues in the public sector. Nobody has the equivalent of NEPA, which requires every significant public project to undergo years (4-5 on average) of environmental review and litigation before even getting started. See: https://legal-planet.org/2012/05/13/comparing-canadian-and-u...

> US environmental law is much more generous in allowing for judicial review of decisionmaking by government agencies that is alleged to violate relevant environmental laws. It is also much more generous in allowing private parties to enforce environmental laws against other private parties who are alleged to have committed violations.

The US is unusual in the degree to which it allows private interests (environmentalists, landowners, etc.) to litigate and hold up projects that the government has already approved.

Re: The A2 motorway no longer divides Maastricht

#80

Post by LeifCarrotson » Wed, Oct 16, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #67

apexalpha wrote: post #2

My hometown! Cool to see it on HN. Maastricht uses to be the only traffic lights on route from Amsterdam to Paris. Yes. Traffic lights on a highway, in the middle of a city. As if the highway in the middle of a city wasn't annoyinh enough the traffic lights added some extra noise, fumes and pollution. The new tunnel has been the most magnificent change I've ever seen. And IIRC the entire project was within budget and…

>Yes. Traffic lights on a highway, in the middle of a city. As if the highway in the middle of a city wasn't annoyinh enough the traffic lights added some extra noise, fumes and pollution. This is an all too common sight in small town America, unfortunately. Highways running directly through small towns seems almost the rule, not the exception.

I think this is a causality problem, not anything out of malice or bureaucratic foolishness.

Roads connect people. Towns are groups of people. Bigger roads connect larger groups of people. Bigger roads are the reasonable choice to convert to highways. People like/find utility in highways and roads, so they live near them.

It's an unfortunate extension of this logical process that results in 18-wheeler jake brakes thundering to a stop at the one red light in downtown Podunk, Nowhere at 3AM, on their way between Megatropolis and Port Industry, which leads to complaining at the town hall that they need "no engine braking" local ordinances and proposals that the 5-lane road speed limit should be reduced from 35 to 25. Nevermind that Podunk was established as a town because it was a convenient distance to stop at in horse-drawn buggies passing through 200 years ago between Megatropolis and Port Industry, and that every business in the town survives only because travelers stop there and inject money into the local economy...

Maybe at some point in the past, the major road should have been diverted around downtown by a half mile. But the local optimum the town currently sits at is far below the peak desirable state not because people love noise and pollution but because it's a straightfoward hill climb to the present state and it's hard to avoid that.