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Harold Bloom Has Died

nytimes.com

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Re: Harold Bloom Has Died

#71

Post by aamar »

jeffdavis wrote: post #13

The article confuses me. Bloom thought both that Shakespeare invented humanity, but also that literature was primarily about the aesthetic pleasure for the reader? I am not an expert in literature or criticism, but it seems like there's something missing from the article to explain that gap. (I'm sorry to hear of his passing, of course, and I don't mean this as disrespectful in any way.)

Right, agreed that that’s a conflict; the latter point—primarily about aesthetic pleasure—isn’t quite right or is at least misleading. In my reading, Bloom values deep wisdom, formal excellence, and innovation—and these things are pleasurable, but also refract our deepest understandings of ourselves and others. He values these over more ‘politicized’ or culturally specific readings.

It’s a little—just a little—like the “art for art’s sake” movements, where the slogan says less about what art is for and mostly insists that art isn’t about its conventionally understood purposes (to morally educate, to record, etc.) and also not about the next dozen theories that might occur to you.

Re: Harold Bloom Has Died

#72

Post by milemi »

jeffdavis wrote: post #21
0_gravitas wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP but I've never liked the notion of "too soon" as a reason for not doing/saying things, it feels very arbitrary. And I don't know much about the person of subject but I will speak ill of anyone living or dead if they are someone worth speaking ill of.

There are two separate issues: speaking ill of the dead at all; and speaking disrespectfully too soon after a death. Speaking ill of the dead at all is generally not good because the person is no longer able to defend their reputation, and no remedy can be made. The dead is no longer in a position of power to be removed, nor can they improve themselves out of remorse. So of something ill is to be said, saying it afte…

You totally convinced me, I’m so sorry now for all the bad stuff I said about Hitler.

Re: Harold Bloom Has Died

#73

Post by smhost »

supernova87a wrote: post #69
smhost wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, i don't know if either of you have been paying attention to anything that's been happening the past several decades, but there's an inherent problem with the codification of offensiveness. if everything's just a bunch of offensive meaningless shit (mormon amusement parks and dragon dildos or whatever), then you run into problems with the the moral relativism of offensiveness (or, in your case, sexual assault) i…

I wasn't commenting about those allegations, I was replying to the parent comment about creative types who have extremes of personality. I personally have no knowledge of those serious claims. I don't read in any reports here or elsewhere that Harold Bloom came close to perpetrating sexual assault. Do you, or do you have personal knowledge? If not maybe you should think about your own relativism as you try to turn ev…

this kind of squirming that people like you do when told to hold to your worldview is really disgusting. the half-step back, half-step forward of double, triple entendre, if you're just slippery enough with your words then you can openly masturbate to your depraved fatansies while also pretending to be some kind of arbiter of greatness. yes, i fucking hate people like you.

Re: Harold Bloom Has Died

#74

Post by skeptical900067 »

keiferski wrote: post #68

One of the most erudite academics of the past century. It is truly a loss for those who have a respect and admiration for the great minds of the past. If you’re a Bloom fan, or are interested in history and literature generally, I recommend looking into Lewis Lapham and his magazine, Lapham’s Quarterly . Lapham is also an exceptionally well-read, classically-trained writer and the magazine operates in the same areas…

I'm familiar with classical training for music (conservatories) and painting (ateliers, master/apprentice systems). I've never heard of classical training for writing. What does it entail? Where can I learn more about the methods?

Re: Harold Bloom Has Died

#75

Post by keiferski »

skeptical900067 wrote: post #74
keiferski wrote: post #68

One of the most erudite academics of the past century. It is truly a loss for those who have a respect and admiration for the great minds of the past. If you’re a Bloom fan, or are interested in history and literature generally, I recommend looking into Lewis Lapham and his magazine, Lapham’s Quarterly . Lapham is also an exceptionally well-read, classically-trained writer and the magazine operates in the same areas…

I'm familiar with classical training for music (conservatories) and painting (ateliers, master/apprentice systems). I've never heard of classical training for writing. What does it entail? Where can I learn more about the methods?

Well perhaps I was using “classically-trained” incorrectly. I meant that he is deeply educated in the classics of western and world literature. If you’re looking for information about the classics, I recommend any of Bloom’s books.

Re: Harold Bloom Has Died

#76

Post by vixen99 »

carterschonwald wrote: post #8
jchallis wrote: post #2

I used to tutor math and physics near Bloom's office in Timothy Dwight. My main association with the man is that he would come on strong to every female English graduate student he could reach. When #MeToo first came to national consciousness about men in arts and letters who completely abused their position to take advantage of women, I thought of Harold. How could these giants of arts and letters abuse so many? Bec…

When I was an undergrad there 2006-2010, his perviness was well known across campus. Female dorm residents had lots of stories

And in effect, now there's one more with further reach.

Re: Harold Bloom Has Died

#77

Post by oska »

whiddershins wrote: post #47
jchallis wrote: post #2

I used to tutor math and physics near Bloom's office in Timothy Dwight. My main association with the man is that he would come on strong to every female English graduate student he could reach. When #MeToo first came to national consciousness about men in arts and letters who completely abused their position to take advantage of women, I thought of Harold. How could these giants of arts and letters abuse so many? Bec…

You can do as you like, but for me it is a decent heuristic to not speak ill of the dead. I, personally, really don’t enjoy reading about people using someone’s death or funeral as a platform for maligning their life, regardless of the accuracy and poignancy of the claims. Would you bring up this discussion in front of a grieving family member? Do you think it impossible someone already in pain might read what is sai…

> it is a decent heuristic to not speak ill of the dead

I take somewhat the opposite view: once someone is dead they can no longer be hurt by anything bad said about them. Defamation law also follows the same principle.

Not that I want to speak ill of Harold Bloom. I only knew him through reading The Western Canon, which I found a very rewarding read, and for his disdain for the Harry Potter mania, where I felt the same way.

Re: Harold Bloom Has Died

#78

Post by oska »

jerf wrote: post #14
0_gravitas wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP but I've never liked the notion of "too soon" as a reason for not doing/saying things, it feels very arbitrary. And I don't know much about the person of subject but I will speak ill of anyone living or dead if they are someone worth speaking ill of.

It is not for the deceased; it is for the family of the deceased and others left behind. They are grieving and don't need to also have to deal with rumors adding to their pain. They didn't do it. It is also a simple application of the Golden Rule; you would not care for everyone around you to take your death as an opportunity to slag you, neither should you do it to you other fellow humans, all condemned to die one d…

The family of a controversial public figure would do better not to expose themselves to public discussion of that person soon after their death but to grieve privately.

And if people are speaking ill of the dead it's highly likely that people were speaking ill of them before they died too, so any 'ill-speak' is hardly likely to be news to them.

(I'm speaking from principle here; I personally have nothing ill to say about Harold Bloom).

Re: Harold Bloom Has Died

#79

Post by zorked »

supernova87a wrote: post #57
coldtea wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, hitting on women (for men), hitting on men (for women), drinking, taking drugs, being tightwad, being lavish, being easily angered, and tons of other things, never stopped anybody from being a giant of letters or the arts, a great politician, a good scientist, a great athlete, a great actor, a great humanitarian, a great businessperson or any other thing... In fact it's probably more common in the great men and…

Is it possible that extreme greatness in certain talents comes with unavoidable flaws in others? Creativity, depression, wit, temper, outbursts, humor, affection. Would banishing some also eliminate the others? Lots of amazing writers, poets, scientists, are terribly flawed, depressed, tortured souls. Hell, even we here on HN debate every day the ridiculous company founders and VCs whose behavior creates interesting…

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."

People who actually achieve something are just subject to more scrutiny.

Also changing social mores means you are almost guaranteed to have done something improper if you have been publicly exposed for several decades.

Re: Harold Bloom Has Died

#80

Post by coldtea »

SquishyPanda23 wrote: post #41
coldtea wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, hitting on women (for men), hitting on men (for women), drinking, taking drugs, being tightwad, being lavish, being easily angered, and tons of other things, never stopped anybody from being a giant of letters or the arts, a great politician, a good scientist, a great athlete, a great actor, a great humanitarian, a great businessperson or any other thing... In fact it's probably more common in the great men and…

People are entitled to like sex and to approach people for relationships that may become sexual. If female grad students were inviting him over for booty calls I think the tone of the conversation would be much different. But the claim is that he was making advances on people who didn't welcome them. This is especially a problem since he was an influential professor with power over their careers. Even for professors,…

>But the claim is that he was making advances on people who didn't welcome them.

That was part of my point. One can be crash or sexist like that and still a great writer/thinker/etc.

The other ("If female grad students were inviting him over for booty calls I think the tone of the conversation would be much different") of course goes without saying!

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