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On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

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Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#71

Post by tzs »

I could get behind a real fix to English pronouns that takes gender completely out of it and fixes the problem of ambiguity when you have more than one pronoun in a sentence.

My proposal would be:

1. "he" becomes gender neutral, and always refers to the first person in the sentence.

2. "she" becomes gender neutral, and always refers to the second person in the sentence. You can think if it as standing for "second he".

3. "tehe" is a gender neutral pronoun that always refers to the third person in the sentence. Think of it is standing for "tertiary he".

4. "quhe", "pehe", "hehe" are the 4th, 5th, and 6th persons ("quad he", "penta he" and "hex he"). If your sentence has more than six persons, rewrite the damn thing.

For example, in the sentence "Alice, Bob, and Carol took his car, she drove, and tehe paid for the gas", they took Alice's car, Bob drove, and Carol paid for the gas.

If they took Bob's car, Carol drove, and Alice paid, that would be "Alice, Bob, and Carol took her car, tehe drove, and he paid for the gas".

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#72

Post by atonse »

Kye wrote: post #69
hirundo wrote: post #67

"Q9: Do I have to use pronouns I’m unfamiliar or uncomfortable with (e.g., neopronouns like xe, zir, ne... )? Yes, if those are stated by the individual." Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think the…

>> "Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think they made a good point", I would have violated the code of conduct." This would be obvious trolling. No one sincerely identifies as an Apache Attack Helic…

Here’s a better example that’s not as obvious: if I am not aware that ze was an accepted pronoun and someone told me to use it, how do I know its real and not them jokingly using “the” with a French accent? Should I report it as someone fooling around?

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#73

Post by Kye »

atonse wrote: post #72
Kye wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Therefore if someone says their pronouns are all Apache Attack Helicopter (and someone will), and you are aware of it, you are obligated to say things like "I think Apache Attack Helicopter made a good point". If I'm familiar with it, yet choose to say "I think they made a good point", I would have violated the code of conduct." This would be obvious trolling. No one sincerely identifies as an Apache Attack Helic…

Here’s a better example that’s not as obvious: if I am not aware that ze was an accepted pronoun and someone told me to use it, how do I know its real and not them jokingly using “the” with a French accent? Should I report it as someone fooling around?

Is the post otherwise good? If so, Google/quack/whatever for ze pronoun and see what comes up. Search engines are better at surfacing explanations for them these days.

In practice, you won't encounter them often, and it should be obvious if they're a troll. Those should be reported and otherwise ignored. You can worry yourself sick with these hypotheticals. You are more dynamic than you give yourself credit for.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#74

Post by gwbas1c »

davvolun wrote: post #58
gwbas1c wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you need to go look up how it's handled in Spanish. BTW, English is gendered, just not as much as Spanish, French, and Italian are.

What are you talking about? English is verifiably not as gendered as Spanish, at the very least. All nouns in Spanish require a gender article (el/la or los/las). In English, you do not have to figure out whether "día" should be prefixed with el or la -- and in the case of "día" despite it ending in "a" which usually implies feminine and la, it's actually masculine and is properly "el día." That doesn't even bring in…

Look more closely at Latin gendering rules, not romance language gendering rules. In Latin, gender comes from the suffix.

It's typically carried over in suffixes from Latin: Words ending in "a" are feminine, words ending in "um" are masculine.

Or, look through common English names and see how often they follow Latin gender suffixes. Adam / Ada is an example. ("Am" is a male suffix.)

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#75

Post by axaxs »

happytoexplain wrote: post #66
axaxs wrote: post #51

I don't care how downvoted I get, I'll never call someone a made up pronoun. There is no word as xir as xe or latinx and i'm not participating in what I'd consider alarming participation of a mental illness. If you want me to call you he, or she, or as pointed just they, I don't think that's asking much. And I'll probably make a mistake, just mention it and move on. But the second you force this crap onto me, I'm out…

>mental illness Do you actually believe this, or are you using it as an insult? >I don't care how downvoted I get This hurts your comment so badly, especially as a leading statement.

>Do you actually believe this, or are you using it as an insult?

I believe this, and mean it more as a matter of fact in a literal sense, and not as an insult.

>This hurts your comment so badly, especially as a leading statement.

To each their own. I know my audience. I lean conservative on a heavily west coast populated forum. I'm usually pretty easy going, but did draw a line in the sand on this. If every SE community trends this way, I'll pursue other interests.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#76

Post by flukus »

ksec wrote: post #22

[Off Topic] I was very late to the whole StackOverflow Saga, and didn't spend much time reading through all of its causes and comments at the time it happen. And when I did, the thing that struck me most and has been in many other places including HN ( Sometimes ) is the use of English presumes others are Americans, especially in technology sector. This completely ignores people all over the world using English to co…

> And when I did, the thing that struck me most and has been in many other places including HN ( Sometimes ) is the use of English presumes others are Americans

This is a huge problem, the assumption that everyone should be forced to share Americas liberal political views. Software is global and much of the globe is still struggling with concepts like equal rights for women and not criminalizing homosexuality. Now all of a sudden people in those countries are being penalized for having perfectly normal attitudes for someone from their culture.

"Inclusivity" is alienating most of the world and destroying diversity for the few people in the world privileged enough to argue about pronouns.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#77

Post by pandaman »

guessmyname wrote: post #61
urthen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely "They". They they they they they. English already has a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun. I explicitly list my pronouns as "He/his or they/their" because I think the neopronouns are ultimately a way to gatekeep inclusivity, which is ironic.

> I explicitly list my pronouns as "He/his or they/their" […] This reminds me of an interview I had with a recruiter from Slack HQ. The first question the interviewer asked was which pronoun should I be called? The question threw me off for a moment but after reflecting about it for a while I thought it was a good strategy to make themselves look inclusive. If you are in California and want to work at Slack, know tha…

This is what confuses me the most: the pronouns usually listed by people who insist on listing them are third person pronouns. How do you use a third person pronoun when talking to somebody to reference the very same person? Or are "he/him/his" etc actually second person pronouns? I.e. if somebody listed pronouns as "they/them/their" should I say "Hi, how are they doing? Can I offer them something to drink?". I hope this is not the case and these are really third person pronouns but then I fail to see how you can use them when addressing that person in a one-on-one interview (since it's "the interviewer" it was a one-on-one, right?).

PS. In Russian there are two second person pronouns and sometimes people will ask if it's appropriate to use a less-formal singular "you" instead of default plural "you" but this makes no sense in English. There is just one second person pronoun.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#78

Post by happytoexplain »

progfix wrote: post #28

I use whatever pronoun I see fit and if I offend someone by using the wrong pronoun I will apology to that person and move on.

"Whatever I see fit" typically is a declaration of defiance and rejection, rather than a simple "I'll try my best". If that characterization is accurate, it implies that your theoretical apology would be insincere. If so, why offer it?

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#79

Post by thaneross »

growse wrote: post #48
progfix wrote: post #28

I use whatever pronoun I see fit and if I offend someone by using the wrong pronoun I will apology to that person and move on.

"I'll wave my fists wherever I see fit and if I end up hurting someone by punching them I'll apologise to that person and move on." Maybe stop waving your fists about?

As a marginalized person who has both been physically assaulted for my identity as well as been subjected to hate & discrimination, let me be clear that equivocation between words and violence is not helpful.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#80

Post by drstewart »

Kye wrote: post #73
atonse wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a better example that’s not as obvious: if I am not aware that ze was an accepted pronoun and someone told me to use it, how do I know its real and not them jokingly using “the” with a French accent? Should I report it as someone fooling around?

Is the post otherwise good? If so, Google/quack/whatever for ze pronoun and see what comes up. Search engines are better at surfacing explanations for them these days. In practice, you won't encounter them often, and it should be obvious if they're a troll. Those should be reported and otherwise ignored. You can worry yourself sick with these hypotheticals. You are more dynamic than you give yourself credit for.

>If so, Google/quack/whatever for ze pronoun and see what comes up.

No, I don't think I will waste my time Googling every little thing to avoid manufactured outrage.

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