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James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

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Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#71

> I found these two guys who ran this little company called Unipress, it was literally two guys in a garage, and I said, "Look, this needs to be free for universities and not ridiculous for everybody else." Gosling sold them Gosling emacs. Before that he apparently "distributed it freely with no copyright notice." Although Gosling wrote Gosling Emacs, it was based on the plans he and Richard Stallman had developed fo…

A copyright notice is not required for copyright; by default in the US, everything copyrightable is copyrighted unless it comes with a public domain notice.

If there's no license attached, or no agreement somewhere, then you do not have legal right to redistribute someone else's work, even if they gave it to you freely.

Gosling was perfectly within his rights to sell gosemacs to Unipress (though note that Gosling never explicitly says in the interview that he sold it to them; he may have given it to them for free). RMS was not within his rights to grab Gosling's sources and change the copyright notices to suit his fancy.

You are quoting Gosling in a selective manner in order to paint him in a bad light. Please don't do that. The bit about a bed to sleep in was a direct response to the conversation veering into how RMS at the time didn't have his own residence, and slept in his office, so there was little legal recourse against RMS since RMS had nothing to lose in a suit.

Nor is your comment even relevant: Gosling had not yet made millions at Sun back in the 80s. He was a grad student, and, presumably, like most grad students I know, was not exactly flush with cash.

I really don't get how you're coming at Gosling so hard; after listening to the interview, he's clearly uncomfortable talking about the topic, tries to avoid pointing the finger at anyone unless appropriate, and it was the interviewer who makes a quip about RMS's hygiene, not Gosling.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#72
post #20

From a 2002 Stallman lecture: There was no free software Emacs editor that ran on Unix. I did, however, have a friend who had participated in developing Gosling's Emacs. Gosling had given him, by email, permission to distribute his own version. He proposed to me that I use that version. Then I discovered that Gosling's Emacs did not have a real Lisp. It had a programming language that was known as ‘mocklisp’, which l…

I was at UCB from 1980-4 and this lines up with what I knew at the time. RMS was a frequent visitor to the group I was in, and I was a user of Gosling's Emacs and switched to the RMS version very early on.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#73
post #72
post #20

From a 2002 Stallman lecture: There was no free software Emacs editor that ran on Unix. I did, however, have a friend who had participated in developing Gosling's Emacs. Gosling had given him, by email, permission to distribute his own version. He proposed to me that I use that version. Then I discovered that Gosling's Emacs did not have a real Lisp. It had a programming language that was known as ‘mocklisp’, which l…

I was at UCB from 1980-4 and this lines up with what I knew at the time. RMS was a frequent visitor to the group I was in, and I was a user of Gosling's Emacs and switched to the RMS version very early on.

(aside: I'm always curious to hear what was going on with UNIX at Berkeley at that time. I sat in Evans hall in the early 2000s and would randomly find hardware that was from CSRG in the drop ceilings).

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#74

XEmacs docs sound a little bit different: http://xemacs.org/Documentation/21.5/html/internals_3.html#T... > As described above, Emacs began life in the mid-1970’s as a series of editor macros for TECO, an early editor on the PDP-10. In the early 1980’s it was rewritten in C as a collaboration between Richard M. Stallman (RMS) and James Gosling (the creator of Java); its extension language was known as Mocklisp. This…

This version is flatly contradicted both by the Gosling interview linked and the Stallman speech linked above; Stallman says his friend (Fen Labalme) had contributed to Gosling's version, but not that he (Stallman) had, when Stallman decided to base GNU Emacs on Gosling's implementation. I suspect that the XEmacs docs just got confused about the history, and Stallman didn't want to hear anything about XEmacs/Lucid Emacs, much less read over their documentation to correct minor historical errors.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#76
post #4

Ouch, that's no small claim. I was just learning emacs because it's GPL... But if it was stolen then, well, that's an entirely different story... What about the other tools Stallman wrote ?

Don't learn emacs because it's GPL, or because of who wrote it. Learn emacs because it's a great tool.

Don't learn emacs, because vi is better ;-)

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#77
post #71

> I found these two guys who ran this little company called Unipress, it was literally two guys in a garage, and I said, "Look, this needs to be free for universities and not ridiculous for everybody else." Gosling sold them Gosling emacs. Before that he apparently "distributed it freely with no copyright notice." Although Gosling wrote Gosling Emacs, it was based on the plans he and Richard Stallman had developed fo…

A copyright notice is not required for copyright; by default in the US, everything copyrightable is copyrighted unless it comes with a public domain notice. If there's no license attached, or no agreement somewhere, then you do not have legal right to redistribute someone else's work, even if they gave it to you freely. Gosling was perfectly within his rights to sell gosemacs to Unipress (though note that Gosling nev…

That only started to be true in 1988, when the US adopted the Berne Convention with its copyright law. In 1981 or 1983, anything without an explicit copyright declaration was considered public domain.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#78

It is a bit late to be arguing about the IP in Emacs. Only 4.5% of developers use Emacs today. More than 50% use VSCode. See https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-...

I think your link is more of a flagrant example of sample bias than anything else. I like Visual studio code; but I'd be really curious what the real numbers are! My guess is that Visual Studio actually wins.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#79
post #71

> I found these two guys who ran this little company called Unipress, it was literally two guys in a garage, and I said, "Look, this needs to be free for universities and not ridiculous for everybody else." Gosling sold them Gosling emacs. Before that he apparently "distributed it freely with no copyright notice." Although Gosling wrote Gosling Emacs, it was based on the plans he and Richard Stallman had developed fo…

A copyright notice is not required for copyright; by default in the US, everything copyrightable is copyrighted unless it comes with a public domain notice. If there's no license attached, or no agreement somewhere, then you do not have legal right to redistribute someone else's work, even if they gave it to you freely. Gosling was perfectly within his rights to sell gosemacs to Unipress (though note that Gosling nev…

Either Gosling is being taken out of context or he's willingly obscuring the issue and occluding important information. Gosling did not invent Emacs and he has no claims to it like it's implied by this interview. Gosling Emacs was a different concept, much inferior to the original idea. Which is a good reason for why it's now in the trash bin of history.

Guy Steele, David Moon, Dan Weinreb (RIP) and (later) Stallman were the originators and major forces and that's where credit should be given for Emacs-the-Lisp-virtual-machine that has stood the test of time.

Origins of Emacs from Guy Steele himself: https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/1633

Gosling is not even mentioned, once.

Re: James Gosling on Richard Stallman [video]

#80

It is a bit late to be arguing about the IP in Emacs. Only 4.5% of developers use Emacs today. More than 50% use VSCode. See https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-...

You don't really expect to find many Emacs users on a platform where 30% of developers uses Notepad++ though, do you? :) I personally wouldn't.

Sigh. Many years ago, I wrote tens of thousands of lines of code in Emacs, wasted many hours in elisp macros, etc.

Nowadays Notepad++ is OK by me.

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