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Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

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Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#71
post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

No, the complaint is not that Cook is not providing direct evidence, and it is a complete misrepresentation to suggest so. It makes your protestations of disinterest rather suspect, as those of supposed "devil's advocates" so often seem to be. The complaint is that Cook's claims are extraordinary and seemingly impossible on their face because of the fundamental nature of the app in question. Its purpose is to show th…

I really did not intend to misrepresent Gruber's complaints. Gruber enumerates his complains quite clearly, and I believe I addressed them quite plainly and fairly.

I also don't think that Cook's claims are extraordinary or at all difficult to believe, so perhaps that's the more fundamental disagreement you and I have.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#72

It's already known that iCloud in China is operated by a state-owned telecom (GCBD) see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21217920 so they could use the data to track the protestors. And iPhone usages is comparatively small according to https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/china (Android 79% and iPhone 20%) Then https://hkmap.live/ is available as a website. So why the outcry about this? In the end, f…

The cynic in me agrees, but by that logic we wouldn't be surprised to find Beige Corp selling heroin or guns to schoolchildren if it "gives them profit". What stops them? Regulation is part of it, but also having at least some interest in keeping their good name...

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, as a person who prizes Apple’s products and happily depends on them for work, personal life, etc. I think Tim Cook needs to either open up sideloading or be promptly fired and replaced by somebody who will. None of this sits well with me. It is a situation we do not need to be in. I agree that he is a moral coward, and in far too important and dangerous a position to be so.

The first duty of public companies is to the shareholders. Users fuzzy feelings figure very little in the incentive structure. Sideloading is probably too damaging to the short term profits of the company to be on the table. Or it might not even be a question worth considering for the board .

I agree. I hope this will be enough of a disaster in terms of optics that it renders him unfit and forces this outcome.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#76

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

> Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths?

At least in China, you can probably assume iMessage is back-doored given that iCloud content in mainland China is operated by a Chinese internet company. Apple quietly posted this last week on their support page:

"iCloud services in China mainland are now operated by Chinese internet services company Guizhou on the Cloud Big Data Industrial Development Co., Ltd., (GCBD). This allows us to continue to improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations."

It goes on to say:

"iCloud services and all the data you store with iCloud, including photos, videos, documents, and backups, will be subject to the new terms and conditions of iCloud operated by GCBD."

Source: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351

EDIT: After some research, it looks like the iCloud handover actually happened last year (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/01/11/icloud_china_goes_t...).

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#77

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

> Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? At least in China, you can probably assume iMessage is back-doored given that iCloud content in mainland China is operated by a Chinese internet company. Apple quietly posted this last week on their support page: "iCloud services in China mainland are now operated by Ch…

Actually we can't assume that at all. It seems I'm going to have to repost this comment a thousand times https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20904857

>Apple has already publicly said in court filings, and under threat of perjury, that they don't make any exceptions for China. From Apple's filing [1]:

>Finally, the government attempts to disclaim the obvious international implications of its demand, asserting that any pressure to hand over the same software to foreign agents “flows from [Apple’s] decision to do business in foreign countries . . . .” Opp. 26. Contrary to the government’s misleading statistics (Opp. 26), which had to do with lawful process and did not compel the creation of software that undermines the security of its users, Apple has never built a back door of any kind into iOS, or otherwise made data stored on the iPhone or in iCloud more technically accessible to any country’s government. See Dkt. 16-28 [Apple Inc., Privacy, Gov’t Info. Requests]; Federighi Decl. ¶¶ 6–7. The government is wrong in asserting that Apple made “special accommodations” for China (Opp. 26), as Apple uses the same security protocols everywhere in the world and follows the same standards for responding to law enforcement requests. See Federighi Decl. ¶ 5.

and a declaration from Craig Federighi personally [2]:

>Apple uses the same security protocols everywhere in the world.

>Apple has never made user data, whether stored on the iPhone or in iCloud, more technologically accessible to any country's government. We believe any such access is too dangerous to allow. Apple has also not provided any government with its proprietary iOS source code. While governmental agencies in various countries, including the United States, perform regulatory reviews of new iPhone releases, all that Apple provides in those circumstances is an unmodified iPhone device.

>It is my understanding that Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a "backdoor" in any of our products and services.

>I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of America that the foregoing is true and correct.

When China wants something from iCloud they do it the same way that law enforcement does it everywhere in the world, which is through Apple.

[1] https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2762131/C-D-Cal-1...

[2] https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2762118-Federighi-De...

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#78
post #50

Apple lied about being in bed with the NSA, too... I don't know why anyone consider Apple much better then Google when it comes to privacy...

can you give a source?

first search result that I found: https://www.cheatsheet.com/technology/apple/is-apple-lying-a... (didn't read it though, but they lied about being part of PRISM)

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#80
It works for me as a share-holder. Apple's iPhone 11 is again popular in China and there are even reports of Apple increasing the 11's production to meet the high demand. Apple should not be doing anything to mess with the Chinese consumers and the Chinese government as China is a very difficult growth market to crack into. I believe that Tim Cook has done a great job of appeasing China and at the same time has worked a very fine line with Trump to keep i Phones out of the Trump's tariffs .
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