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VPN⁰: A Privacy-Preserving Distributed VPN

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Re: VPN⁰: A Privacy-Preserving Distributed VPN

#71
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My IP got blacklisted from various sites for simply running a non-exit relay. People say it's totally safe to run a relay/bridge; it is not.

Perhaps Tor should become an integral part of the TCP/IP stack. That way, exit nodes would simply be the destination nodes for every connection. (?)

I'm finding it difficult to understand what you're saying. You can already funnel all your traffic using a Tor SOCK proxy. So you don't need any changes to the TCP/IP stack to do what you seem to want. However, forwarding all your traffic increases the risk of fingerprinting, so you should give it careful consideration.

Re: VPN⁰: A Privacy-Preserving Distributed VPN

#72
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk – with something as crucial as a browser I want the people who give it to me to have a clear and obvious incentive structure.

You still didn't explain how a feature that you'd never use affects you in any negative way. Every browser has features that you don't use.

A lot of HN users can't stand crypto simply because they missed out. Envy leads to childlike refusals.

Re: VPN⁰: A Privacy-Preserving Distributed VPN

#73

One step further that Ive prototyped is Encrypted and Distributed Search. The VPN relays willing to take the traffic can also double as Web crawlers. The vpn clients encrypt their search terms and vpn relays encrypt their search indexes, and perform ElGamal Homomorphic private set intersection with MINHASH in Elliptic Curve Field. This leads to better then key word, worse then current age context search from google b…

> The vpn clients encrypt their search terms and vpn relays encrypt their search indexes, and perform ElGamal Homomorphic private set intersection with MINHASH in Elliptic Curve Field.

Can I get this phrase on a T-shirt?

Re: VPN⁰: A Privacy-Preserving Distributed VPN

#74
(I am technically involved in a project called Orchid that would be considered a direct competitor to this idea, were this idea a product; but I would like to think my cynicism isn't related to that ;P.)

So, a more complete--and somewhat more balanced--description of this is in the actual paper, for which this is just a blog post summary; I would think the paper is way more valuable than this blog post, and maybe should even be the Hacker News post target.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1910.00159

First off, the DHT here is unlikely to scale well to large whitelists; yet, for small whitelists, you will (of course) end up knowing the target domain to high probability--which, even for large whitelists, is going to be possible given just the target IP address almost all of the time anyway: even with a CDN, the set of websites you get overlapped with tends to not be extremely large; and, even when it is, it is almost always with a bunch of niche websites that are unlikely to be on your whitelist--so, the premise that this is all hiding from the exit node who you are connecting to is extremely weak.

Oh: and when it does even sort of work with the CDN (due to having the shared endpoint), the user can usually then use domain fronting to trick the SNI, which would bypass this proof and let you connect to any other website behind that IP address; so, really, the way they are doing whitelists is just wrong: the IP address you are connecting to and the totality of what is behind it is way more important than the SNI. Essentially, while you can do this (prove, in zero knowledge, the SNI of an HTTPS connection), it doesn't seem like it really helps a real-world problem (as the situations where the technique works correlate with situations where you failed to hide anything).

Meanwhile, this paper admits to taking 10-30 seconds per HTTPS connection (not per VPN tunnel!) as the DHT lookups and zero knowledge proofs are both slow operations. Somehow, before that completes, it sounds like you just get to use a different node to send "unauthorized traffic"? Why can't I just sit in that regime forever? I am hoping I just don't understand this part, but they say it multiple times as if it isn't such a big deal, and have a bunch of space dedicated to trying to make it sound like the unauthorized traffic would be a small portion of the total traffic (which doesn't exactly sound comforting).

And finally, domain whitelists don't work in the first place: I can post horrible things that get you in trouble to the comments section of a news site (their best example of a kind of website you might whitelist) quite easily; and, for their example of Facebook, it is actively dangerous: Facebook is an entire Internet unto itself that proactively scans for evil things, and so if you whitelist that you are essentially admitting "I would be willing to let you do anything". I could see a URL-based whitelist potentially having value, but not a domain-based one. We shouldn't be making users feel safer with systems that don't even slightly help :(.

(It is maybe also worth reminding that before the advent of encrypted SNI, this data could easily have been used to filter and whitelist traffic... and yet people working on projects like Tor still don't use it for filtering, as it just isn't enough, as you still don't know what the user is doing. It frankly just feels likely to me that the two goals that people want to simultaneously achieve here--"I don't know exactly what you are doing" and "I do know, to some reasonably high certainty, that you aren't doing something that would harm me"--are simply philosophically incompatible without some form of reputation/trust... which then makes achieving a third goal that people want--"I don't know who you are"--much harder.)

Regardless, back to the paper itself, I would argue that this is a single maybe-novel idea--that you can do a zero knowledge proof over the SNI packet of a TLS 1.3 connection with encrypted SNI--that is, as is common in academic papers, trying to be described in the context of a full-scale solution by surrounding it with the minimally-viable wrapper required to turn it into a product for an under-specified use case and then trying to type quickly past the serious downsides (such as the latency), all without being extremely critical of whether the idea itself is useful.

Re: VPN⁰: A Privacy-Preserving Distributed VPN

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With other browsers, the clear and obvious incentive is "to get paid to spy on users". I'm not a big Brave fan but saying their incentives are worse than Chrome or even Firefox is ridiculous.

Have you ever heard of open source browsers like ungoogled chromium or pale moon? They have no incentives and are far better than brave’s, who wants to sell you advertising.

Of course. Chromium is still an upstream that has had changes due to Google's interests, right?

Re: VPN⁰: A Privacy-Preserving Distributed VPN

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With other browsers, the clear and obvious incentive is "to get paid to spy on users". I'm not a big Brave fan but saying their incentives are worse than Chrome or even Firefox is ridiculous.

> or even Firefox Please expand.

Where does most of the Mozilla Corporation's money come from?

I'm not trying to cast stones here, but they're still primarily (last time I checked) funded by Google- not users. Your incentives are aligned with the people who pay you.

Re: VPN⁰: A Privacy-Preserving Distributed VPN

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With other browsers, the clear and obvious incentive is "to get paid to spy on users". I'm not a big Brave fan but saying their incentives are worse than Chrome or even Firefox is ridiculous.

Have you ever heard of open source browsers like ungoogled chromium or pale moon? They have no incentives and are far better than brave’s, who wants to sell you advertising.

> who wants to sell you advertising.

Inaccurate. Brave wants to overhaul advertising: to be able to switch it off completely paying a fee, or earn money by not switching it off (and thus watching the ads), tune it, etc

Re: VPN⁰: A Privacy-Preserving Distributed VPN

#79
post #71
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps Tor should become an integral part of the TCP/IP stack. That way, exit nodes would simply be the destination nodes for every connection. (?)

I'm finding it difficult to understand what you're saying. You can already funnel all your traffic using a Tor SOCK proxy. So you don't need any changes to the TCP/IP stack to do what you seem to want. However, forwarding all your traffic increases the risk of fingerprinting, so you should give it careful consideration.

Let me clarify, because you are talking about something else. One of Tor's weaknesses is that you always need exit nodes, and running an exit node comes with certain risks. Now, what I'm saying is that if Tor was an integral part of the internet, then everybody would effectively be running exit nodes. The exit node and the destination node would be same thing. Government agencies wouldn't be able to take down exit nodes because that would mean they would have to take down the entire internet.

Re: VPN⁰: A Privacy-Preserving Distributed VPN

#80

I refuse to use a browser with a cryptocurrency attached to it. It feels like the only reason it is being pushed so hard is so BAT holders can make a buck. It might be a great browser but I will always think of it as onecoin with a some chrome tossed in.

This seems like a nonsense argument. You prefer a browser that spies on you? Over a cryptocurrency you don’t have to use?
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