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France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

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Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#71

Post by mytailorisrich »

raverbashing wrote: post #61
cm2187 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but that's not different from fingerprints. Fingerprints have collisions. That doesn't mean that it isn't a highly effective tool.

Yes, the analogy is valid. Hence why fingerprints are "good"/"very good" at making sure the person presenting the fingerprint is who they claim they are, but for other purposes, not so much. But they be better than face recognition at "search at a DB" tasks (especially if you have multiple fingers)

The current system is that a human being looks at you then at your passport/ID card, and then concludes that the document is genuine and that you are the same person as in the picture.

So the question is: how good at this is a facial recognition system compared to a human being?

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#72

Post by cm2187 »

JeanMarcS wrote: post #69
cm2187 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2017/06/22/la-france-e... Le fichier Fnaeg, créé en 1998, conserve les empreintes génétiques des personnes condamnées ou « mises en cause » dans la plupart des crimes et délits relatifs aux atteintes aux biens et aux personnes, du crime contre l’humanité aux simples violences, en passant par le trafic de drogue et le proxénétisme. Translation: The Fnaeg database, created in 1998,…

So it's not only sexual assault (that's what surprised me in the first place), ok, thanks for all clarifications.

Well it was initially but its scope was progressively extended to include pretty much all offenses now. And is used to also solve any offense, like a robbery.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#73

Post by pushpop »

mieseratte wrote: post #66
icebraining wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything can change later, even removing a procedure could be a prelude to adding a new, more invasive one. An incremental step requires an increment. Nothing gets incremented here. The French government already had this data, and already used it to biometrically identify people. The only thing this inches toward is to a reduction in the number of public functionaries. This is the automated checkout system for State…

> Nothing gets incremented here. People's expectations and willingnesses are moved forward. Overton Window. > This is the automated checkout system for State services, nothing more. Look beyond the superficial, at larger issues. Anyone can shoot any idea down by reducing it to a simple, innocuous sounding concept to make the other look ridiculous. Claiming "there's nothing here" is wrong, saying "I recognize the pote…

> Anyone can shoot any idea down by reducing it to a simple, innocuous sounding concept to make the other look ridiculous.

Just as anyone can argue that any change to process is salami slicing even when nothing of any real value is being incremented.

I do understand your concern and I think healthy skepticism is a good thing. I’m just not convinced your so arguments are consistent with the facts being presented.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#74

Post by cm2187 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #68
cm2187 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2017/06/22/la-france-e... Le fichier Fnaeg, créé en 1998, conserve les empreintes génétiques des personnes condamnées ou « mises en cause » dans la plupart des crimes et délits relatifs aux atteintes aux biens et aux personnes, du crime contre l’humanité aux simples violences, en passant par le trafic de drogue et le proxénétisme. Translation: The Fnaeg database, created in 1998,…

Neither that article nor the actual law put the threshold as low as 'questioned' for DNA to be stored in that database though DNA may indeed be collected to be matched against it.

It may be an abuse of the law, but the fact is that it is common practice. First result on google:

https://crabgrass.riseup.net/assets/138965/120313+manifestan...

Giorgos, militant anarchiste, avait été placé en garde à vue lors d’une manifestation à Montpellier en octobre 2010. Il avait été accusé par les policiers d'avoir, avec d'autres manifestants, renversé des poubelles. Une poursuite classée sans suite pour cause d’« infraction insuffisamment caractérisée ». Mais il avait eu le tort de refuser qu’on lui prélève ses empreintes génétiques et a été condamné en première instance à un mois de prison avec sursis par le tribunal correctionnel de Montpellier.

Translation: Giorgos, an anarchist militant, was arrested during a demonstration in Montpellier in Oct 2010. He was accused by the police, along with other demonstrators, to have knocked over bins. The case was dismissed because the offense "was insufficiently characterized". But his fault was to refuse to have his DNA taken and was sentenced for that to a month of suspended jail term by the Montpellier court.

I read similar stories in other demonstrations.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#75

Post by lifty »

Barrin92 wrote: post #57
mieseratte wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is fine and dandy until the day you're a target. Power is a sword that cuts both ways.

you can always be the target to border or airport controls regardless of how much technology is involved, and policing was no less crude before we introduced facial recognition checks. I've been checked at airports before and I have no problem with airport security either. Terrorism or crime are real threats and police without technology is just as biased if not more so then machine aided ones. The minority report fe…

The problem is that these kind of automated system give governments more leverage than policing using people, and it enables them to do systemic oppression. Also, people have a moral compass that can prevent them from doing bad things, while machines don't. But everything is fine as long as the government is ok. I come from one of the eastern EU states which were under communist rule, and I am naturally more skeptical towards these systems.

edit: I understand that in this particular example the data is stored only on the phones, so your face is used only used to generate a unique signature, which I don't find that bad. But it's important that this is kept in check and that the system is not extended later to centralise all this data.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#76

Post by mytailorisrich »

cm2187 wrote: post #74
mytailorisrich wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither that article nor the actual law put the threshold as low as 'questioned' for DNA to be stored in that database though DNA may indeed be collected to be matched against it.

It may be an abuse of the law, but the fact is that it is common practice. First result on google: https://crabgrass.riseup.net/assets/138965/120313+manifestan... Giorgos, militant anarchiste, avait été placé en garde à vue lors d’une manifestation à Montpellier en octobre 2010. Il avait été accusé par les policiers d'avoir, avec d'autres manifestants, renversé des poubelles. Une poursuite classée sans suite pour cau…

This isn't the same. We discussed collection and storage in a database.

This story is about someone refusing collection, which is an offence.

He was not entitled to refuse DNA collection but his DNA could not have been stored in the database unless the case met the legal threshold.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#78

Post by mytailorisrich »

lifty wrote: post #75
Barrin92 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can always be the target to border or airport controls regardless of how much technology is involved, and policing was no less crude before we introduced facial recognition checks. I've been checked at airports before and I have no problem with airport security either. Terrorism or crime are real threats and police without technology is just as biased if not more so then machine aided ones. The minority report fe…

The problem is that these kind of automated system give governments more leverage than policing using people, and it enables them to do systemic oppression. Also, people have a moral compass that can prevent them from doing bad things, while machines don't. But everything is fine as long as the government is ok. I come from one of the eastern EU states which were under communist rule, and I am naturally more skeptica…

> that this is kept in check and that the system is not extended later to centralise all this data.

As already explained the data come from passports. All of the data in passports (and ID cards since this is in France), including pictures, is already centralised in a government database. After all you gave the picture to the government when you applied for a passport...

This is also why this new system is completely neutral.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#79

Post by cm2187 »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #76
cm2187 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be an abuse of the law, but the fact is that it is common practice. First result on google: https://crabgrass.riseup.net/assets/138965/120313+manifestan... Giorgos, militant anarchiste, avait été placé en garde à vue lors d’une manifestation à Montpellier en octobre 2010. Il avait été accusé par les policiers d'avoir, avec d'autres manifestants, renversé des poubelles. Une poursuite classée sans suite pour cau…

This isn't the same. We discussed collection and storage in a database. This story is about someone refusing collection, which is an offence. He was not entitled to refuse DNA collection but his DNA could not have been stored in the database unless the case met the legal threshold.

I assumed DNA collected was systematically added, but you are right that it may not be the case.

Re: France Set to Roll Out Nationwide Facial Recognition ID Program

#80

Post by mieseratte »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #78
lifty wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that these kind of automated system give governments more leverage than policing using people, and it enables them to do systemic oppression. Also, people have a moral compass that can prevent them from doing bad things, while machines don't. But everything is fine as long as the government is ok. I come from one of the eastern EU states which were under communist rule, and I am naturally more skeptica…

> that this is kept in check and that the system is not extended later to centralise all this data. As already explained the data come from passports. All of the data in passports (and ID cards since this is in France), including pictures, is already centralised in a government database. After all you gave the picture to the government when you applied for a passport... This is also why this new system is completely…

> This is also why this new system is completely neutral.

That it is neutral today does not mean it will remain so.

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