Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

lithub.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 168 posts

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#71

Post by Symmetry »

cptnapalm wrote: post #34
Symmetry wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all, most democratic socialists like the Fabian society are willing to change their approach when they try something and it doesn't work. The result is mere inefficiency, not corpses piling up. If the SRs, say, had won the Russian Revolution things would probably have turned out basically all right. But it was the Bolsheviks with their plan of communism immediately, not in 20 years, who won. They treated their…

Do I see Voeglin on HN?

You've got to admit that "Immanentize the eschaton" is a great phrase. I ran into it first through Robert Anton Wilson which I'd bet is typical of HN readers who know it. But mostly I'm finishing up The House of Government so the issue is quite on my mind.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#72

Post by aalleavitch »

gmfawcett wrote: post #57
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It stems from John Perry Barlow and the Cyberspace Declaration of Independence. There was a lot of discussion of what the emerging net was, and what it was going to be. A society, a state, governable or ungovernable, above or separate from such things, etc. Which led to the Declaration. https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence

Ahhh, thank you. So not "Internet" as technical superproject, but "Internet" as emergent supersociety. (I don't believe that anarchists actually invented either of those things, but at least I get the reference now!) "We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace." Gosh, I had forgotten what heady times the Nineties were!

The anarchists didn't need to invent it, it described what people were already participating in. Anarchy is simply the natural state of man without an imposed hierarchy. The scientific community is an anarchy.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#73

Post by TaylorAlexander »

chrisdhoover wrote: post #58
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarcho socialism hasn’t succeeded yet, but I still believe it must succeed in the future if we are ever to see real freedom for the masses and to avoid near total destruction of the Earth’s biosphere. If anyone wants to downvote me, I ask that you choose one of two alternatives. First, tell me why you want to downvote. Or, read this article by Albert Einstein talking about the necessity of socialism: https://monthly…

OP writes of anarcho syndicalism. Reply conflates it with anarcho socialism. Not sure these are the same things

I’m aware of the differences and as another reply pointed out, one is a broader term than the other. I used the broader term.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#74

Post by systematical »

aalleavitch wrote: post #63
systematical wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism will reach its end one day, long after we are gone, but that will be because of its own technologic achievements and not because of 19th-century socialist philosophy. Capitalism will become so efficient at some point that in its quest for more and more efficiency, it will end resource scarcity. Once scarcity is eliminated, capitalism "withers" away. That's my hope anyway. In the short-term, I'd like to see…

Capitalism doesn't wither away, it imposes artificial scarcity to allow its uneven power dynamic to continue. At some point the cruelty itself becomes the point. I would argue we're already past the point where we have to deny resources to anyone, we could feed and shelter everyone if we had the will to do it. Actually I think that right now, when we are facing the potential reality of AGI not many decades away, is w…

Humans aren't very good at managing things. Just take a look around your co-workers some time and you'll see mismanagement. We're really bad at managing! You could say, scarcity is a management issue. If systems are managed by inefficient beings, well then the system doesn't really matter be it socialism or capitalism. I'll take my chances with capitalism and hope the best managers naturally rise to the top.

Maybe AI can remove the mismanagers from the problem one day. Or maybe, even with our woeful mismanagement, if two hundred governments weren't pitted against one another and we had a single world government, there would be plenty to go around even with humans mismanaging everything.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#75

Post by SequoiaHope »

DuskStar wrote: post #66
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarcho socialism hasn’t succeeded yet, but I still believe it must succeed in the future if we are ever to see real freedom for the masses and to avoid near total destruction of the Earth’s biosphere. If anyone wants to downvote me, I ask that you choose one of two alternatives. First, tell me why you want to downvote. Or, read this article by Albert Einstein talking about the necessity of socialism: https://monthly…

> Anarcho socialism hasn’t succeeded yet, but I still believe it must succeed in the future ... to avoid near total destruction of the Earth’s biosphere. Why do so many people seem to act like some form of socialism is required (or even useful) to avoid environmental issues? It really doesn't help fight the right's narrative of "all this global warming stuff is just the economic left seeking more control over the eco…

You’re presuming I’m not arguing in good faith. I actually do deeply believe that capitalism, being a system where a minority can accrue great wealth and therefore have significant motivation to do so regardless of the costs, is a system that directly promotes environmental destruction. Anarcho socialism or Anarcho communism are instead systems that have no privileged class willing to destroy for their own benefit. In these systems all the masses of people are deeply democratically organized in the society and would only destroy the environment if they all agreed it was worth it. I believe the masses of people are less willing to destroy the environment (for less benefit to themselves) than a wealthy class which could benefit greatly from that destruction.

Perhaps it is easier to assume I am arguing in bad faith, but I think you ought to consider that I know what I’m talking about.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#76

Post by [deleted] »

miceeatnicerice wrote: post #64
Miner49er wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your main idea is Marxist. Marx said the same thing, that Capital would end itself, through the elimination of scaricity. Though I think he was wrong about that, things like UBI proves that it always finds a way to survive. But anyway, you are both saying Marxist and pro-capitalist things, so I would guess you're just being downvoted by everyone.

Surely it was going to be the rise of class consciousness that overthrew Moloch? Though if we're all involved in the process ourselves, and only gain this consciousness through work, the end of Capitalism isn't so much a violent overthrowing from outside as much as a growing, positive realization of what was inside it anyway. Maybe that's exactly what things like UBI point to: life as an adventure rather than a slave…

[deleted]

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#77

Post by SequoiaHope »

edmundsauto wrote: post #67
SequoiaHope wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People on HN downvote comments that are pro anarcho socialism without saying why they disagree. HN is a very capitalist place apparently. It would be nice if we could really engage in these discussions, but people seem to want to just downvote without comment.

That could indicate they don't find the discussions of political systems very interesting, or particularly relevant to HN. I'm one of those people -- I find a plot to kill Orwell interesting and I couldn't care less about the discussion of anarcho-* interesting, except very narrowly if it contributed to the context of the article. (Edit - not a downvoter however)

It may be true, but my hunch is that discussions of capitalist market politics are fine and only socialism gets downvoted.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#78

Post by edmundsauto »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #77
edmundsauto wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could indicate they don't find the discussions of political systems very interesting, or particularly relevant to HN. I'm one of those people -- I find a plot to kill Orwell interesting and I couldn't care less about the discussion of anarcho-* interesting, except very narrowly if it contributed to the context of the article. (Edit - not a downvoter however)

It may be true, but my hunch is that discussions of capitalist market politics are fine and only socialism gets downvoted.

This could be a mix of relevance (US-centric, startup centric message board) and confirmation bias.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#79

Post by DuskStar »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #75
DuskStar wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anarcho socialism hasn’t succeeded yet, but I still believe it must succeed in the future ... to avoid near total destruction of the Earth’s biosphere. Why do so many people seem to act like some form of socialism is required (or even useful) to avoid environmental issues? It really doesn't help fight the right's narrative of "all this global warming stuff is just the economic left seeking more control over the eco…

You’re presuming I’m not arguing in good faith. I actually do deeply believe that capitalism, being a system where a minority can accrue great wealth and therefore have significant motivation to do so regardless of the costs, is a system that directly promotes environmental destruction. Anarcho socialism or Anarcho communism are instead systems that have no privileged class willing to destroy for their own benefit. I…

And why would the members of such a society not choose to damage the global environment if the local benefits outweighed the losses? That's the carbon emissions problem, after all.

Regarding 'good faith' - I think you might be arguing in good faith, but I don't see how you'd think that argument is the best path to take to convince people to either support the environment or to abandon our current economic systems for yours.

Personally I think we need major geoengineering to preserve the current temperature range, and that our current economic system tends towards a failure mode with extremely concentrated wealth. I don't think those are connected, though. In fact, an argument can be made that concentrating much of the world's wealth in one person would also be good for the environment, since the required changes would have a smaller impact on their wealth than on their personal wellbeing. Basically, the theory goes that $10T + nice environment to live in > $100T + dead environment, so the hypothetical multitrillionaire would spend $90T to improve things based purely on self interest. This isn't to suggest that giving Jeff Bezos absolutely everything would be a good idea, or that doing such is necessary - just that there might be other routes than 'some flavor of socialism'.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#80

Post by ian0 »

gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

I think its more related to authoritarianism than communism, as same could be said for dictatorships. Authoritarianism gifts both a reason for dissent and the ability to purge it.

Compare and contrast with a parlimentary democracy running a heavily capitalist economic system. While it gives plenty of reason for dissent it also provides little opportunity to purge. This give and take leads to less extremes and more stability in general.

Post reply on HN