Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#71

Post by ypcx » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 10:05 AM UTC

katsura wrote: post #29

Majestic121 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a whole cluster to get started, you can use Minikube locally for example : https://minikube.sigs.k8s.io/docs/

Have they solved the high CPU usage problem while it is running (even when no containers are inside)? I don't like my laptop hot, so never could make a switch.

They haven't. As an example of where this lack of efficiency comes from, recently I've fixed an issue during which I've discovered that the Etcd component of k8s uses periodic (10 sec) liveness checking, where for every check (launching of the etcdctl client), the `runc` binary (from container.d) is executed 3 (three) times. You can imagine this probably just scratches the surface.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#72

Post by raxxorrax » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 10:08 AM UTC

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #31

peterwwillis wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, systemd sucks balls, so I kind of agree with not having PRs specific to it, but I see your point that wearing that on a name tag isn't very nice.

> systemd sucks balls No it doesn't. Shell scripts in your init system sucks balls. Systemd is great.

I am in favor of a new discussion about existential philosophical differences again. Almost missed the systemd drama.

I use systemd on pretty much any linux machine but am very sympathetic to the arguments of its detractors, which to a significant degree results from the behavior of its proponents and the inability to see that you actually do loose flexibility in theory.

You could argue taht GNU/linux could be called GNU/systemd/linux.

I couldn't write a better init system than systemd, but I like the idea that some people could. And I am pretty sure there are people like that.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#73

Post by psv1 » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 10:09 AM UTC

Can anyone offer a good guide to DevOps for people who don't directly use these tools but work with engineers who do and would like to learn more? The whole ecosystem of servers, cloud infrastructure (and all of the different offerings there), Docker, Kubernetes, CICD tools etc is a bit overwhelming to get into.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#74

Post by Dowwie » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 10:16 AM UTC

de_watcher wrote: post #23

paule89 wrote: post #15

The problem i have with cubernetes is the following: I as a small developer and small server owner don't have the ressources to even get started. The first thing i see at cubernetes is a cluster. Why a cluster. Do i need to cluster my Raspberry pi's to get something out of it? Do i need to buy 3 servers just to run 5 containers? In docker its easy. Download Docker. Start container. Install container manager like plat…

Docker and Kubernetes are on completely different layers. You can't do those comparisons. Kubernetes is like an operating system, Docker is like a format for the executable files. There is no problem with servers. We're running Kubernetes in production on a single Linux machine, essentially using Kubernetes as an alternative OS.

Kubernetes seems to be intended for large, complex environments but yours seems to not meet that category. What have you gained by using it?

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#75

Post by bryanlarsen » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 10:18 AM UTC

katsura wrote: post #29

Majestic121 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a whole cluster to get started, you can use Minikube locally for example : https://minikube.sigs.k8s.io/docs/

Have they solved the high CPU usage problem while it is running (even when no containers are inside)? I don't like my laptop hot, so never could make a switch.

--vm-driver=none helps a lot with the CPU and especially RAM usage, using k3s instead of minikube helps more.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#76

Post by bryanlarsen » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 10:29 AM UTC

paule89 wrote: post #15

The problem i have with cubernetes is the following: I as a small developer and small server owner don't have the ressources to even get started. The first thing i see at cubernetes is a cluster. Why a cluster. Do i need to cluster my Raspberry pi's to get something out of it? Do i need to buy 3 servers just to run 5 containers? In docker its easy. Download Docker. Start container. Install container manager like plat…

> Why a cluster?

For availability. If you have promised 99.9% or more availability to your customers you probably need some sort of redundancy or hot failover. Kubernetes is a good option to get that.

If you don't need 99.9%, simpler is better.

> Too cheap

You can get a single node Kubernetes cluster from Digital Ocean for $10 per month.

That's silly because a single node cluster doesn't have redundancy which is the main reason for Kubernetes, but it lets you get started. A minimum redundant cluster would have two nodes and a $15 load balancer, so $35 per month at DO.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#77

Post by roryrjb » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 10:34 AM UTC

dasyatidprime wrote: post #18

Maybe this isn't quite the perspective the article's taking—but damn near no one visibly wept for LXC when Docker stomped all over it in terms of “what people think containers just Are”. And now the news asks why I don't weep for them? Live by the stomp, die by the stomp.

I weep for Solaris Zones and FreeBSD Jails. Granted I don't really have much experience of them, I do have some experience of containers on Linux via Docker but also in constructing a minimal container runtime in C (not OCI compatible or anything), but my point is there was a lot of work in this area before Docker and especially in the case of Zones, freely available today in illumos distributions, are completely overlooked. I mean I could be completely missing something here, but Joyent for example seem to have made some really good innovations with Manta, i.e. spinning up containers to run UNIX pipeline equivalent jobs directly in the cloud on the data, but as with illumos vs Linux, Zones vs Docker and Joyent vs AWS/GCP/Azure, it seems to me a david vs goliath kind of battle, even if the tech is better.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#78

Post by jhanschoo » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 10:40 AM UTC

Majestic121 wrote: post #53

jhanschoo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If uptime is not a concern and only one node is intended, docker-compose is a far more efficient solution to any k8s solution.

It might be more efficient but it's definitely not a solution to get up to speed with k8s

I'm sorry, I somehow missed that the top-level commenter was interested in the one-node k8s to get started in it.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#79

Post by cuspycode » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 10:46 AM UTC

de_watcher wrote: post #61

dasyatidprime wrote: post #18

Maybe this isn't quite the perspective the article's taking—but damn near no one visibly wept for LXC when Docker stomped all over it in terms of “what people think containers just Are”. And now the news asks why I don't weep for them? Live by the stomp, die by the stomp.

LXC feels more UNIXy. Docker command line tools and formats feel awkward in that regard (which helped to popularize the thing by pushing this one specific view).

I agree. I had some VMs that I wanted to turn into containers. With LXC it was a breeze, and the result is very much like a "lightweight VM". Docker seems more like putting a single application process in a container, which is a very different thing. And if I want to do that, I'll seriously consider running the application in a unikernel (e.g. OSv) instead.

Re: Why doesn’t anyone weep for Docker?

#80

Post by bvm » Fri, Sep 06, 2019, 10:50 AM UTC

budhajeewa wrote: post #66

dagw wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Everybody' is using docker the software, 'nobody' is using (ie paying) Docker the company. The article makes it clear they're talking about the company.

My small company pays for private image storage there. We actually used Google Cloud Platform's Docker Image hosting service, and that was expensive. Yay!? What else can we pay them for? All the stuff we need are available from them for free, except private storage. If they had a container hosting solution, we'd pay for it.

yeh we pay them like $15/month for Hub/Cloud/Private Image Storage/whatever it's called this week.

It actually seems quite cheap...we have something like 2TB of tags up there, and they don't charge for network I/O. I did feel slightly bad when a hidden crash looping pod set to always download lay undiscovered for a month...that's a LOT of I/O.