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The growing science of memory manipulation

scientificamerican.com

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Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#71

Post by jpttsn »

lostjohnny wrote: post #65
aussieguy1234 wrote: post #4

Just because an animal can't tell the difference between the real and artificial memory does not mean a human couldn't do the same. Using animals in research is generally inaccurate.

> Just because an animal can't tell the difference between the real and artificial memory does not mean a human couldn't do the same. In the same way, we can't tell humans can do it without testing the hypothesis first. If animals can, probably we can, if animals can't, it's possible that we can't as well.

...fly? Shed skin? Sleep upside down? Survive without oxygen? Travel to mars?

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#72

Post by buboard »

aussieguy1234 wrote: post #4

Just because an animal can't tell the difference between the real and artificial memory does not mean a human couldn't do the same. Using animals in research is generally inaccurate.

Animal models are definitely inaccurate in general. But memory mechanisms are conserved and it's also false to believe that our brain's intuitions are true. We have blind spots left and right, a false sense of free will and a long history of inaccurate memories.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#73

Post by sacheendra »

lostjohnny wrote: post #62
slim wrote: post #9

The mere possibility of tampering with memory is indeed the most dangerous thing that could happen to humanity. Imagine not being able to believe your own memory. In fact we don't have to imagine, I believe I've been subjected to "mass gaslighting" on multiple occasions recently on the internet : some piece of information I'm sure I saw on the internet suddenly completely disappears. Google + Facebook + "right to be…

> "right to be forgotten" type of policy The right to be forgotten is a right, as the name suggests. It always existed, if I want to be fogotten IRL I can, why shouldn't it be possible online? What's the difference between deleting my social timeline and burning my pictures or my diary? One of my favourite books is "The Late Mattia Pascal" (Il fu Mattia Pascal) from Luigi Pirandello, it was written in 1904 and it's t…

Let me take a shot at answering this. The idea is that the internet is a social construct. The information it holds is shared knowledge accessible to everyone.

Contrast burning your photos with burning all copies of a book. On the internet, a lot of things exist in the gray area between them.

That makes it difficult to judge if the info that was is private or public.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#74

Post by buboard »

sysbin wrote: post #7

The next most interesting direction the researchers could go would be if deletion is possible. I’m assuming the question of deletion being even possible would be amazing to find certainty. I’m speculating for an existing memory to be deleted, it has to be rewritten and thus typical deletion is impossible without rewriting. Once all this is perfected, the future technology of brain interface for humans will have even…

Most of this research is actually driven (and funded) by the desire to identify and erase memories for e.g. PTSD victims. It doesn't require "rewriting", there are ways to delete engrams with chemical inactivation for example.

https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-01...

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#75

Post by lostjohnny »

jpttsn wrote: post #71
lostjohnny wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because an animal can't tell the difference between the real and artificial memory does not mean a human couldn't do the same. In the same way, we can't tell humans can do it without testing the hypothesis first. If animals can, probably we can, if animals can't, it's possible that we can't as well.

...fly? Shed skin? Sleep upside down? Survive without oxygen? Travel to mars?

Probably means probably.

On the same (wrong) line of thinking we can't say humans can walk because some of them can't.

Not all birds fly as well...

besides, some animals are better than others for testing purpose.

Mice are well known for having a great memory, testing mice for memory makes sense.

Recent studies proved that mice memory cells work on experiences and not on places, just like ours.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#76

Post by buboard »

mrleiter wrote: post #58

> Memories are essential to the sense of identity that emerges from the narrative of personal experience. That, for me, is one of the main ethical issues. No matter in which society you live, a very large part of its identity is derived from memory and/or common history. If you can manipulate that, you can manipulate society. And we already have so many subconscious levers pushing our perception of self (social media…

> a very large part of its identity is derived from memory and/or common history

There is vast literature about how this identity is partially built on collective false myths and the desire to collectively forget inconvenient facts. Our public identities are largely defined by our willingless to tell white lies to each other.

"Forgetfulness, and I would even say historical error, are essential in the creation of a nation."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_a_Nation%3F

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#77

Post by lostjohnny »

sacheendra wrote: post #73
lostjohnny wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "right to be forgotten" type of policy The right to be forgotten is a right, as the name suggests. It always existed, if I want to be fogotten IRL I can, why shouldn't it be possible online? What's the difference between deleting my social timeline and burning my pictures or my diary? One of my favourite books is "The Late Mattia Pascal" (Il fu Mattia Pascal) from Luigi Pirandello, it was written in 1904 and it's t…

Let me take a shot at answering this. The idea is that the internet is a social construct. The information it holds is shared knowledge accessible to everyone. Contrast burning your photos with burning all copies of a book. On the internet, a lot of things exist in the gray area between them. That makes it difficult to judge if the info that was is private or public.

> The information it holds is shared knowledge accessible to everyone.

Unless I want to delete what's mine.

I have no obligation of leaving it there for others to read.

> Contrast burning your photos with burning all copies of a book

That's a very wrong comparison.

You burn many copies of a single book

While I defend the right of deleting a single copy of the private work of a single human

Just like a painter has the right to destroy their own paintings.

it's already happened before

it is a right and it is unalienable

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/blu-destroys-bologna-stree...

https://www.streetartbln.com/blu-murals-painted-over/

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#78

Post by buboard »

koonsolo wrote: post #57

On the other hand, this could mean that people will not have to study anymore (eg a new language), because they can just download it to memory. "Oh man why does this Speak French download takes an entire 3 hours!?!?"

"Downloads taking too long? Subscribe to our notifications service. Get faster downloads for just a single daily memory implantation of a product you 've never bought but already love! Hurry up, supply is limited!"

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#79

Post by lostjohnny »

jpttsn wrote: post #70
lostjohnny wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "right to be forgotten" type of policy The right to be forgotten is a right, as the name suggests. It always existed, if I want to be fogotten IRL I can, why shouldn't it be possible online? What's the difference between deleting my social timeline and burning my pictures or my diary? One of my favourite books is "The Late Mattia Pascal" (Il fu Mattia Pascal) from Luigi Pirandello, it was written in 1904 and it's t…

It’s not possible IRL. If I want my picture gone from the high school yearbook, nobody will help me track down every copy and mask the image. If I want the local grocery cashier not to greet me by name, I can’t make them forget me.

> If I want the local grocery cashier not to greet me by name, I can’t make them forget me.

You can go to another grocery store.

It's your right.

Sometimes solutions are simple.

Rest assured that in a few months nobody will remember you at the old store.

Re: The growing science of memory manipulation

#80

Post by Hitton »

aussieguy1234 wrote: post #4

Just because an animal can't tell the difference between the real and artificial memory does not mean a human couldn't do the same. Using animals in research is generally inaccurate.

This is very good remark. I saw Vsauce video about chimpanzees' photographic memory compared to normal human memory. Proposed explanation is cognitive tradeoff hypothesis - basically that while chimpanzees' memory is visual, human memory is influenced by language - basically how you describe event in your head.
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