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Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

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Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#71

Post by [deleted] »

save_ferris wrote: post #62
lixtra wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My stomach turns thinking all we’re going to learn about this chapter in American history over the next 10 years because we’re not seeing all of it unfold in real time. > Much of this adds up to an existential crisis in democracy that we’re just now waking up to. When do you think it was better in the past?

I'm not arguing that there is a better period in the past than what we're experiencing now. But American history relative to the present has no bearing on the severity of the atrocities we're seeing now, no? Are you suggesting that what I've outlined above is somehow acceptable because America has always had black marks in the history books?

[deleted]

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#72

Post by save_ferris »

malvosenior wrote: post #60
save_ferris wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its a smear that they are anti-diversity. No it's not. Many prominent figures in the GOP have courted openly racist views over the years. Some highlights: Rep Steve King, who has a very long history of espousing racist views, openly questioned why "White Nationalism" is now an offensive term.[0] Do you believe that the concept of white nationalism or any of its ancillary movements to be offensive? Deceased GOP stra…

There's plenty of racism to go around in all major political parties. "Super-predators" anyone? > efforts to take voting strength away from voters of color by implementing a citizenship question on the 2020 census. It seems totally rational and fair that people be asked about their citizenship on a census.

> There's plenty of racism to go around in all major political parties. "Super-predators" anyone?

That was 30 years ago, and the history of that phrase was used against Hillary to great effect in 2016. What a fallacious claim to equate a statement made 30 years ago to multiple, repeated instances of racism on the right. Nobody on the left is defending the use of that term today.

> It seems totally rational and fair that people be asked about their citizenship on a census.

There's a very strong legal argument that the explicit goals for adding the citizenship question makes it unconstitutional.

Hofeller wrote in confidential memos that his daughter released stating that the explicit goal of adding the question was to scare members of the Latino community into not answering the question, given the current administration's crackdown on immigration. This directly contradicts the mandate laid out in the Constitution which clearly states that the Census is to be filled out by everyone living in the US, not just citizens.

By designing a question to explicitly suppress participation in certain communities, the motives to which were leaked by Hofeller's daughter, the administration could in no way argue that it had a legitimate legislative reason to add the question to the census, which is exactly why they stopped pursuing it.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#73

Post by uoaei »

marmaduke wrote: post #47
uoaei wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Members of the younger generation (myself included) have little experience with administrations who demonstrate their fealty to the abstract ideals of the USA. We have, with few exceptions, not been led by people who have the US populace -- in contrast to its economy and hegemony -- at the forefront of their minds. NAFTA, and globalization more broadly, and its effects has progressed to the point where the promises o…

I mostly agree with you, even if this reads like a shortened college essay. > We're pretty peeved that this blatant deceit is lost on the older generations My parents are 60-70yo, in the streets for Sanders. I don't think you are the only cynic, far from it, but the real problem is when cynicism breeds obedience. You can't believe your cynicism isn't the result of calculation, can you?

> when cynicism breeds obedience

Is this meant to mean that persistent cynicism becomes closed-mindedness and a disengagement from the root issues? Would you mind expanding?

I believe (to first order) all judgments are based on calculations, but with the caveat of sample bias. So to that end, I have reached this conclusion based on my personal experience with what I've lived and observed. I recognize my limited perspective but cannot comprehend its limits or what lies beyond, but my emotional charge remains fixed to what my experience has shown me so far.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#74

Post by malvosenior »

save_ferris wrote: post #72
malvosenior wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of racism to go around in all major political parties. "Super-predators" anyone? > efforts to take voting strength away from voters of color by implementing a citizenship question on the 2020 census. It seems totally rational and fair that people be asked about their citizenship on a census.

> There's plenty of racism to go around in all major political parties. "Super-predators" anyone? That was 30 years ago, and the history of that phrase was used against Hillary to great effect in 2016. What a fallacious claim to equate a statement made 30 years ago to multiple, repeated instances of racism on the right. Nobody on the left is defending the use of that term today. > It seems totally rational and fair t…

Super-predators is the most obvious and famous example that comes to mind (one you're quick to dismiss), but do you really think there isn't racism on the left? Many would say that the objectification, tokenization and gamification the left does with minorities is racist. In fact, as non-white minority that's exactly how I feel.

> This directly contradicts the mandate laid out in the Constitution which clearly states that the Census is to be filled out by everyone living in the US, not just citizens.

It's absolutely absurd to suggest counting the number of citizens is racist. Not everyone has to answer yes to that question, thus sticking with the constitutional goal of accurately surveying the populace. Do you really not see any value in a country knowing how many citizens it has?

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#75

Post by sixstringtheory »

pacala wrote: post #34
rco8786 wrote: post #14

33 here - Never cared much for religion..they look, act, feel like cults but there's an approved list of these cults apparently. Having a kid changed my life for the better but I was probably in the "not so important" boat before that happened. The big one for me is patriotism. When I was younger I was quite conservative, very pro-USA, refused to believe that any country could possibly do anything better than the way…

Patriotism is not believing your county is best. Patriotism is believing it's worthwhile to strive to make your country better.

This is really well put, so much so that I searched to see if it was actually a quote. Didn't find it, but did find an interesting one from Bernard Shaw [0]: "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it."

I am not well read on him so don't know the context or his intention, but after a quick scan of his wikipedia page I saw that he admired Hitler and Stalin, professed a belief in dictatorship and criticized the Nuremburg trials [1]. Would love to hear more from someone knowledgable on him.

In any case, I want to print your comment on stickers or tshirts or something. Spot on!

[0]: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/george_bernard_shaw_38692...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw#1930s

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#76

Post by gourabmi »

Miner49er wrote: post #68
yesenadam wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some good points, but I don't think 'nationalism' means what you think it means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

Well, yeah I'm talking about "nations" but you can't have nationalism without a nation. And you can't have a nation without the idea of citizenship or borders right?

Don't let the wordplay confuse you. There can definitely be nationalism without a nation. One of many examples being Kurdistan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#77

Post by dragonwriter »

Miner49er wrote: post #68
yesenadam wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some good points, but I don't think 'nationalism' means what you think it means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism

Well, yeah I'm talking about "nations" but you can't have nationalism without a nation. And you can't have a nation without the idea of citizenship or borders right?

> Well, yeah I'm talking about "nations" but you can't have nationalism without a nation.

Correct, basically.

> And you can't have a nation without the idea of citizenship or borders right?

Wrong: citizenship and, especially, borders are features of the association with and territorial limits of the jurisdiction of a state.

A nation is an identity group which may or may not have a state, a state is a political unit which may or may not be tightly associated with a nation. The modern nation-state system is one in which there is a norm that states tend to be coextensive with nations, and where that isn't the case either nations try to carve out states or states try to create new national identities.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#78

Post by inimino »

julienreszka wrote: post #70
inimino wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is all I need to know Perhaps you should update your understanding of how polls work and are to be interpreted... if you think you understand statistics better than the WSJ, consider that you might be mistaken.

The WSJ is grossly incompetent when it comes to polling. https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-AI628_100616_G... https://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-leads-donald-tr... Not only the sample size is wrong but also the method. Telephone polling is totally inadequate today. Most people ignore phone calls.

Most people don't understand Bayesian reasoning either, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't. If the polls have no value to you, then you lack the framework to interpret them.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#79

Post by save_ferris »

malvosenior wrote: post #74
save_ferris wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's plenty of racism to go around in all major political parties. "Super-predators" anyone? That was 30 years ago, and the history of that phrase was used against Hillary to great effect in 2016. What a fallacious claim to equate a statement made 30 years ago to multiple, repeated instances of racism on the right. Nobody on the left is defending the use of that term today. > It seems totally rational and fair t…

Super-predators is the most obvious and famous example that comes to mind (one you're quick to dismiss), but do you really think there isn't racism on the left? Many would say that the objectification, tokenization and gamification the left does with minorities is racist. In fact, as non-white minority that's exactly how I feel. > This directly contradicts the mandate laid out in the Constitution which clearly states…

I'm not dismissing that term, which was undoubtedly racist and reflected the poor race relations of the democratic party back then. Nor am I suggesting that there aren't individuals who may express racist views, I have no way of knowing that.

What I do know is that racial division has been a hallmark of this administration, from equating white supremacist protesters (one of whom literally murdered a protester, btw) with counter protesters in Charlottesville, which the president did.

Nor am I suggesting that counting the number of citizens is racist. When a high-level GOP party operative writes to other members of the party that they need to implement the question in order to suppress the count of minority members in the US, you can't argue that you're trying to get an accurate count of people living in the US.

I'm not suggesting that this was implied somehow, Hofeller explicitly stated this in his memos. He wanted to scare Latinos into not filling out the census and put it writing. How is that not racist? This was one of the most powerful GOP strategists in the country putting this idea out among party officials.

Re: Americans Have Shifted Dramatically on What Values Matter Most

#80

Post by vharuck »

malvosenior wrote: post #74
save_ferris wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's plenty of racism to go around in all major political parties. "Super-predators" anyone? That was 30 years ago, and the history of that phrase was used against Hillary to great effect in 2016. What a fallacious claim to equate a statement made 30 years ago to multiple, repeated instances of racism on the right. Nobody on the left is defending the use of that term today. > It seems totally rational and fair t…

Super-predators is the most obvious and famous example that comes to mind (one you're quick to dismiss), but do you really think there isn't racism on the left? Many would say that the objectification, tokenization and gamification the left does with minorities is racist. In fact, as non-white minority that's exactly how I feel. > This directly contradicts the mandate laid out in the Constitution which clearly states…

>Do you really not see any value in a country knowing how many citizens it has?

There is definitely value in that, but the Census' primary goal is to count everyone. And the experts in the Census Bureau believed the citizenship question would harm that count. That's a non-starter.

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