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YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

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Re: YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

#71

Post by ahallock »

dmix wrote: post #66
coliveira wrote: post #17

The big problem with classical music is that the compositions are all in public domain, however most performances are not. Given the subtle differences between performances, algorithms are not smart enough to figure out the difference. In fact, even humans would have a hard time to distinguish between two performances of certain classical pieces.

Still sounds like a Youtube problem, not with copyright. The amount of false positives Youtube's copyright system has generated is crazy. It's clearly broken and wide-open for abuse by bad actors. Even with the complications of copyright there are so many examples of people having entirely fair-use videos taken down. It goes well beyond just the difficulties of two works one copyrighted/one not matching.

This is a side effect of having onerous copyright laws. It takes quite a bit of engineering effort that could have been spent on other projects. This means economic loss and frustration for consumers.

As an aside, without copyright, we could have both Disney and Sony Spiderman movies. The consumer wins, and there's more than enough money to go around for competing studios.

Re: YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

#72

Post by [deleted] »

wbl wrote: post #54
EvanAnderson wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DMCA is for publishers, not creators. If Rousseau would just conform to the system and give a publisher a cut everything would be fine. Independent creators have always been the enemy. Edit: I am being completely sarcastic w/ respect to the second sentence. I believe that there are people (those who are enriched by the current copyright system) who do believe that, though.

The publisher is not entitled to that cut. In fact this doesnt involve the DCMA at all but YouTube's own process.

[deleted]

Re: YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

#73

Post by la_barba »

stephen_g wrote: post #58
coliveira wrote: post #17

The big problem with classical music is that the compositions are all in public domain, however most performances are not. Given the subtle differences between performances, algorithms are not smart enough to figure out the difference. In fact, even humans would have a hard time to distinguish between two performances of certain classical pieces.

I don't think it's so much that the algorithms aren't smart enough to tell, it's that Google have had to make the algorithm still match in the case of people altering music with filters/effects, time stretching, pitch shifting etc. - so it's been made deliberately a lot less sensitive to most of the factors that a musician brings into their interpretation. That's fine - it's probably necessary for Google to not be co…

But why would you want anyone to have to pay anything? Google is one of the richest companies. This should be simply the cost of doing business. Google wants to make money by removing humans completely. They should have to pony up the expenses for when their system fails...

Re: YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

#74

Post by rtkwe »

dmix wrote: post #66
coliveira wrote: post #17

The big problem with classical music is that the compositions are all in public domain, however most performances are not. Given the subtle differences between performances, algorithms are not smart enough to figure out the difference. In fact, even humans would have a hard time to distinguish between two performances of certain classical pieces.

Still sounds like a Youtube problem, not with copyright. The amount of false positives Youtube's copyright system has generated is crazy. It's clearly broken and wide-open for abuse by bad actors. Even with the complications of copyright there are so many examples of people having entirely fair-use videos taken down. It goes well beyond just the difficulties of two works one copyrighted/one not matching.

The problem is fair use isn't something that can be algorthimically determined. All you can really do algorithmically is say 'this bit of content matches this bit of content' determining if that match is part of fair use requires determining the context in which it's used which will be a hard problem until we either figure out uploads (and some poor schmucks' uploads have to watch and filter YT videos all day) or general purpose human level AI.

There are some heuristics that could be used but so many of them break down in pretty common cases. Eg: If we say using a small portion of someone else's video in a larger video won't strike it leave out some types of videos like Destin from Smarter Everyday or the Slowmo Guys where the most interesting shot could be 3-5 seconds total or if we just measure by length of copyrighted material vs the whole video we'll wind up with bit 10 hour compilations of copyrighted stuff from different places maybe. It's a hard problem and unfortunately Google (pushed somewhat by the law and somewhat by their own internal decisions) take a flag and contest approach that favors the 'original' creator.

Re: YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

#75

Post by wbhart »

Rousseau found a way around the block. He uploaded the video again in a way that caused it to be claimed, rather than blocked, by a different company. He'll still have to dispute it, but YouTube is not obliged by law to take down content that only received a claim. The video is no longer blocked.

Re: YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

#76

Post by brokensegue »

imihai1988 wrote: post #61
brokensegue wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hash collisions? No, I don't think you understand how these content matching systems work.

well, that does not seem to be a very constructive answer. mind sharing some info/references on this specific one, or any others ? because I though it's a blackbox type of software

I mean how exactly they work isn't public knowledge. But we can be sure they don't just hash anything. It would be too easy to just add small amounts of noise and defeat them.

Here's a reference I googled for you https://www.toptal.com/algorithms/shazam-it-music-processing...

Re: YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

#77

Post by donmcronald »

stephen_g wrote: post #58
coliveira wrote: post #17

The big problem with classical music is that the compositions are all in public domain, however most performances are not. Given the subtle differences between performances, algorithms are not smart enough to figure out the difference. In fact, even humans would have a hard time to distinguish between two performances of certain classical pieces.

I don't think it's so much that the algorithms aren't smart enough to tell, it's that Google have had to make the algorithm still match in the case of people altering music with filters/effects, time stretching, pitch shifting etc. - so it's been made deliberately a lot less sensitive to most of the factors that a musician brings into their interpretation. That's fine - it's probably necessary for Google to not be co…

Make it $50 and give half to the winner.

Or you could even turn it into a system where you can post a (prepaid) bond for a video. Ex: $50 gets automatic human review. $500 gets a phone call from a rep. The catch is you lose the bond if you're legit infringing. Make it channel wide and I bet there's a class of YouTubers that would be willing to post multi thousand dollar bonds to assert their legitimacy.

Re: YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

#78

Post by Karunamon »

wbhart wrote: post #57
onli wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Content ID is not the DMCA. Content ID got it wrong here, and that happens all the time. It's not a big deal for the claimer. Which is totally contrary to how DMCA works, if someone makes a wrong claim there it gets very expensive for them. Youtube could easily copy that aspect of the DMCA and make it very expensive for mis-claimers, and easy to counteract automatic mis-classification. That they don't has nothing dir…

This is everything to do with the DMCA. YouTube claims it is required by law to take down content that receives a takedown notice. That law is the DMCA. Edit: I'm probably wrong. It seems a claimant can also issue a block. They do not have to issue a takedown notice. That seems to be the problem right there!! (However) I find it really difficult to believe the claimant in this case has no control over what YouTube do…

Youtube's content ID system is not the DMCA. It stands in front of that system, it never gets invoked. DMCA has a notice/counternotice system with a formal requirement for what a notice requires. Content ID and the monetization nonsense that entails can be whatever Youtube wants it to be.

Re: YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

#79

Post by donmcronald »

la_barba wrote: post #73
stephen_g wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's so much that the algorithms aren't smart enough to tell, it's that Google have had to make the algorithm still match in the case of people altering music with filters/effects, time stretching, pitch shifting etc. - so it's been made deliberately a lot less sensitive to most of the factors that a musician brings into their interpretation. That's fine - it's probably necessary for Google to not be co…

But why would you want anyone to have to pay anything? Google is one of the richest companies. This should be simply the cost of doing business. Google wants to make money by removing humans completely. They should have to pony up the expenses for when their system fails...

The cheaters and liars need to be penalized. If they're spending others' money they won't stop trying.

Re: YouTube blocks recording of public domain Schubert/Liszt composition

#80

Post by tssva »

onli wrote: post #44
izacus wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Content ID is not the DMCA. Content ID got it wrong here, and that happens all the time. It's not a big deal for the claimer. Which is totally contrary to how DMCA works, if someone makes a wrong claim there it gets very expensive for them. That simply is not true. DMCA misclaims are pretty much not punished at all in practice.

The provisions are there. If they are not used it's either because the violated party does not sue or because the US justice system again is not working properly. But at least that's how the system ought to work. With Content ID there is no recourse at all against misuse, it all relies on Youtube to care. Which it doesn't seem to do at all.

The provisions don't protect against a wrong claim but a purposefully false claim. Unless you can come up with proof that the claimant knew they were filing a false claim you are out of luck.
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