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Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

reuters.com

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Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#71

Post by coliveira »

krapp wrote: post #70
coliveira wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that it is happening right now, and I don't see politicians doing anything substantial to stop it.

There's nothing to stop. Trump no more has the authority to order U.S. businesses around than you or I. He's an authoritarian thug who still doesn't know how governing works.

The president controls the defense apparatus, which can label any country they wish a "threat to national security", which according to laws enacted since 9/11 can prevent American companies to do business with other countries. In the post 9/11, trumpian world, economic freedom depends on the mood of the president.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#72

Post by zaroth »

Cyberdog wrote: post #64
zaroth wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it’s feasible . It’s just marginally more expensive. A combination of tighter labor, environment, and safety regulations, and a higher cost of living. The tariffs are exactly what will spur the investment in US manufacturing, and the marginal benefit of manufacturing in China and then shipping the end product halfway around the world eroded away.

For certain definitions of “marginally,” I suppose. And keep in mind many of the more complex things manufactured in China are done so from components themselves manufactured in China or elsewhere in east Asia, so either those would also have to be manufactured here, or they’d have to be imported, and we’re back where we started. And so on all the way down to the raw materials.

Marginal cost is an economic term. I’m not using the term colloquially to mean small or insignificant.

Of course manufacturing is an ecosystem which builds up over time, with positive feedback loops where investment drives further efficiency throughout the supply chain.

All the more reason to raise tariffs now, and hope that they stay high for enough years to stop the ongoing atrophy in the US ecosystem.

It’s not just because China’s an unfair competitor from a labor rights and environmental impact perspective. It’s also a massive national security issue.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#73

Post by dragonwriter »

hello_1234 wrote: post #14
mindthegap wrote: post #5

> “Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China, including bringing your companies HOME and making your products in the USA.” What a weird tone. Is that a thing in the US? Can the president (legally) order companies "home"? Doesn't sound like "land of the free" to me.

If he can set 25% tariff on everything imported from China, what's stopping him from setting 2500% tariff on everything? Wouldn't that effectively and immediately stop all trade with China?

> If he can set 25% tariff on everything imported from China, what's stopping him from setting 2500% tariff on everything?

(1) the absence of any statute granting him the authority to impose export tariffs, and

(2) the fact that any statute which did exist purporting to grant him such authority would be invalid under the Export Clause, which explicitly prohibits export taxes and duties.

OTOH, he could prohibit pretty much any trade he chose with China under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (the main law under which Executive-declared sanctions are instituted.) He just can't tax exports.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#74

Post by NohatCoder »

Aperocky wrote: post #32

It won't matter if US implement 100% tariff on China, what's going to happen next is that they're still going to create 800 parts in China, which gets shipped to Vietnam and assembled there and exported as a product of Vietnam. Vietnam (or whatever other country) would benefit at the cost of China/United States and more carbon emission due to shipping. The enormous electronic manufacturing in China isn't moving anywh…

Every country with tariffs have an army of bean counters whose job it is to deal with that kind of loopholes. Sure something will slip though, but anything big will get caught.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#75

Post by dragonwriter »

coliveira wrote: post #50
openasocket wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not a thing. Generally speaking, the president can't do much here besides ask companies to do this. There might be some ways he could force companies to no longer do business with China, like declare sanctions against China, but they would be on shaky legal grounds. And by shaky legal grounds, I mean guaranteed to be challenged in court and go all the way to the Supreme Court.

> can't do much here besides ask companies to do this Incorrect, the president controls the defense apparatus, which can label any country they wish a "threat to national security", which according to laws enacted since 9/11 can prevent American companies to do business with other countries. In the post 9/11, trumpian world, economic freedom depends on the mood of the president.

> which according to laws enacted since 9/11 can prevent American companies to do business with other countries.

The most relevant law is the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, which was passed 34 years before 9/11.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#76

Post by zaroth »

moate wrote: post #68
zaroth wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it’s feasible . It’s just marginally more expensive. A combination of tighter labor, environment, and safety regulations, and a higher cost of living. The tariffs are exactly what will spur the investment in US manufacturing, and the marginal benefit of manufacturing in China and then shipping the end product halfway around the world eroded away.

More likely the tariffs (and currency manipulation by the Chinese) will just result in other Asian nations ramping up their factory creation. I know my company (we make toys and games) will be looking at Vietnam and a few other South East Asian nations before looking at home. I think you're greatly underplaying things when you say "marginal" benefit here. There's no way my company could employ as many office workers…

Moving your Factory out of China to another Asian nation is a national security win, for starters.

But once you’ve started considering that process, maybe you run the numbers and find the marginal cost (an economic term, not to be confused with “small”) of producing locally isn’t as high as you think.

Every company importing from China is doing this analysis. For some percentage of those companies, the numbers will make sense to move into the US. Whether they are building a new local factory or contracting for space on an existing US line.

And it’s not purely “is the US marginally cheaper today,” but the bigger question of; is it less risky overall to produce in the US based on what might happen in the future?

China and the US are not allies, and US companies should see some degree of risk in keeping their production in China.

And I even forgot to mention the rampant intellectual property theft and counterfeiting.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#77

Post by krapp »

coliveira wrote: post #71
krapp wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing to stop. Trump no more has the authority to order U.S. businesses around than you or I. He's an authoritarian thug who still doesn't know how governing works.

The president controls the defense apparatus, which can label any country they wish a "threat to national security", which according to laws enacted since 9/11 can prevent American companies to do business with other countries. In the post 9/11, trumpian world, economic freedom depends on the mood of the president.

I'm sure you feel this is a really strong argument to make but don't copy and paste replies in a thread like that, it's spamming the thread.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#78

Post by zaroth »

mindthegap wrote: post #5

> “Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China, including bringing your companies HOME and making your products in the USA.” What a weird tone. Is that a thing in the US? Can the president (legally) order companies "home"? Doesn't sound like "land of the free" to me.

At this point people should really understand how to read a statement from Trump. It actually is important to read all the words.

“Hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative” does not mean he is trying to say companies must cease importing from China, even if that’s what the headline will read tomorrow.

It simply says that companies need to start looking for alternatives to China.

Trump is saying it’s going to get increasingly expensive to import all our stuff from China going forward.

Can he make things increasingly expensive to import from China? As long as he’s President, yes he can.

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#79

Post by Balgair »

mindthegap wrote: post #63
jaredhansen wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"hereby ordered" means exactly nothing without legal authority behind it. The President can't just "order" companies to randomly do things. I mean, he can, but they don't have to comply, and there's no legal penalty if they don't.

It still carries a lot of weight if the president says something like this. Legal or not. And since it doesn't seem to be legal it is actually worse that the head of a country uses this sort of language.

Understatment of the year? Yes, Donny Two-Scoops is indeed not using language correctly [0]. Watch the video there. It's really something.

[0] https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/donald-trump-sentence/

Re: Trump orders U.S. firms out of China after Beijing sets new tariffs

#80

Post by ladyattis »

I don't grasp why Trump thinks these kinds of messages are any good. Maybe it's okay for his campaign but if we're talking the country, it's clear it doesn't help. All it does is it make companies great and small have to scramble for any kind of contingent plan to deal with him. I'm not a fan of capitalism but I'm a fan of keeping myself fed. The more he meddles in these affairs in such a haphazard way the more it makes the economy unstable. All I can say is that he better pray to whatever god he believes in that it doesn't wind up leading to a recession or a depression.
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