Live data from Hacker News

Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

nationalgeographic.com

71–80 of 342 posts

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#71
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As dsRNA is ubiquitous in nature, I would disagree. There is no equivalence with synthetic pesticides when it comes to the active ingredient. There's no new molecular structure, no genetic modification, no new protein produced. It's chemically identical to what you consume every day. It doesn't hang around in the environment. The status quo is we keep doing what we are currently doing for decades. The risks of doing…

> The status quo is we keep doing what we are currently doing for decades. The risks of doing that are far greater in my opinion. Still a hard no. It's precisely this attitude that got us where we are today. 50 years ago, the response would have been 'the status quo is we're headed towards mass starvation as we become unable to feed the giant post-war population boom using traditional agricultural techniques'. Now we…

Of course the future is uncertain. I don't know that if my going to work tomorrow is not going to rip a hole in the space time continuum, but I'll risk it anyway. I know that's being facetious, but the point remains. There are clear and obvious dangers with current practices. They are not sustainable. One can never say for certainty that any change may not have unintended consequences, but in this case, they are being actively identified and mitigated so a repeat of issues associated with synthetic and organic pesticide is less likely.

For me (and this is only my opinion), a highly targeted dsRNA, which is completely organic (it's not synthesised), has no synthetic modifications, is present in massive quantities in nature, is consumed every day by every person on earth if they're had fruit or vegetables, does not persist in the environment, is likely much safer than any existing pesticide, synthetic or organic.

As for selective pressure, current broad spectrum pesticides, synthetic or organic, would cause greater ecological disruption I would think. Again, my point is that this is an attempt to remove that pressure, not add to it.

Saying it's all too hard to predict, so let's do nothing, just doesn't seem sensible to me. The risks of not acting seem clear and obvious. Have a look at the talks in the OECD link I provided, and you'll see there's a pretty precautionary approach being taken. It's not a case of 'let's have a go and see if it works. What could go wrong?'

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#72
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did demand X though. The supermarkets had both tasteless strawberries and organic ones and we made our choice. Many supermarkets still have organic ones and we still pick the cheaper, larger, less tasty one.

I pay a premium for tasty, often seasonal fruit like strawberries and peaches because the difference in taste is night and day. One tastes better than candy. The other will teach kids not to eat fruit. A tip: Use your nose to sniff and distinguish between what’s ripe and tasty and what’s merely visually appealing.

Same, I often don’t bother buying alcohol or chocolate and spend that money on better quality produce, a good piece of fruit is better than any other desert in my opinion.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#73
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's super interesting. I had the same idea. I was thinking if there is a case in the current financial environment to just collect money from VCs, corporations etc and then buy land and make it "human-free". If you look at Chernobyl the results are very promising despite the radiation... see for example: http://theconversation.com/chernobyl-has-become-a-refuge-for...

why would a VC put money in this? It's not like it promises any form of return on the investment. As a charity cause, sure, but that is not something that the current financial environment encourages particularly.

Current? I don't think the financial environment has ever (or can ever) encourage giving money away.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#74
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did demand X though. The supermarkets had both tasteless strawberries and organic ones and we made our choice. Many supermarkets still have organic ones and we still pick the cheaper, larger, less tasty one.

More than one time I bought organic and there wasn't a big difference. Fruit quality and taste is so random that in the end I buy the cheapest

This is in fact among the best signals, because ripe fruit is a perishable commodity that floods the market in season.

When I'm casing a supermarket looking for fruit I tend to start with price and then check the goods.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#75
post #59
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did demand X though. The supermarkets had both tasteless strawberries and organic ones and we made our choice. Many supermarkets still have organic ones and we still pick the cheaper, larger, less tasty one.

Organic doesn't mean more flavor. Tasteless strawberries are around for a few reasons 1) you can't try before you buy. bigger, redder strawberries look better, so sell better, so are grown more, and so on until that's the expectation. if varieties are cultivated for their looks, that means they're not cultivated for their taste or sugar content 2) bigger strawberries are easier/faster to pick, which means they're che…

> Organic doesn't mean more flavor.

It doesn't formally mean that, but often it means that in practice.

I think some of the success of organic food is that it can in practice be a marker for attractive features that otherwise have nothing to do with "organic". Consumers learn the association and use it, even if they don't buy into the organic philosophy.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#76
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it that society was convinced? Or was/is it that it is more “out of sight, out of mind”? I think for the layperson, little matters other than how much does it cost? If there is some invisible but safe-for-us chemical that increases yield and decreases cost, all the better for us, right? I think this is one of the great things to come out of the invention of the web. We are becoming better informed and this kind of…

you are neglecting the negative effects of spraying billions of tons of Roundup on the planet before the public knows for sure that it is a dangerous poison. Same with neonics, we sprayed too much and the insect populations shrunk too much and will not revive quickly since the poison is still in plants and soil. The obvious thing is that industries work for profit and have no sympathy with insects or the health of in…

I think this "Roundup is a dangerous poison" was a propaganda meme that came out of the need to demonize US agribusiness in Europe. It's a kind of social activism protectionism. I would not be at all surprised to learn it was sustained by funding from ag interests in Europe.

OF course Roundup is not a dangerous poison. This is simply a lie that is repeated over and over by the dishonest and the gullible.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#77
post #64
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The active ingredient is double-stranded RNA, which we all consume every day (from viruses in fruit and veges), so no issues for human health via ingestion pathway. A poorly designed dsRNA that has too much homology to a gene of a related beneficial species could impact it if it took up the dsRNA. dsRNA doesn't hang around in the environment, so the beneficial organism would have to be there at the time of spraying.…

You are making an assumtpion that your dsRNA is safe. The same type of assumption was made with Roundup where Roundup "only" effected a single pathway. We now know that this assumption was wrong and that Roundup causes cancer. Making assumptions is a very dangerous game.

You're already eating dsRNA. Plants have microRNA precursors and viruses. We eat plants.

Roundup is a synthetic herbicide - that they both could be used in agriculture is when the similarity ends.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#78

The EU banned field use of neonicotinoid pesticides from the start of this year. Is there evidence yet that insect populations within the EU are recovering this year? It's too early for scientific publications to have come out, but if you live in an agricultural area of the EU, have you observed a difference?

I live in Denmark where about 60% of the land is used for agriculture. I’m also a fly fisherman and entomology is almost a natural side effect of this hobby. This summer I’ve seen the best mayfly and caddis hatches that I’ve seen in several years. This is totally anecdotal and there likely many other factors, but increased organic farming and possibly already the ban of neonics could be showing its effects.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#79
post #18

The EU banned field use of neonicotinoid pesticides from the start of this year. Is there evidence yet that insect populations within the EU are recovering this year? It's too early for scientific publications to have come out, but if you live in an agricultural area of the EU, have you observed a difference?

1000 days in circulation means we'll have to wait at least 4 summers to start seeing a change, I'd wager. Also, it might depend on where there are different types of insects currently, and how successful they happen to be in reproduction and spreading over time.

Since neonics have a half-life of ~30 days when exposed to sunlight (unclear if that’s continuous exposure or what), it could be that we see some statistically significant improvements sooner than the 1000 days.

Re: Insect 'apocalypse' in U.S. driven by 50x increase in toxic pesticides: study

#80
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which generation of chemist/scientist since the 1970s did not describe their work as developing “safer” poisons. Which chemical company has not sold their product primarily with the “safer” headline? Do you really believe it? Can you not just see that’s the umbrella justification under which all new generations of poison products are developed? The safe poison is no poison. Why are we so intent on killing things on t…

Agriculture involves preferencing specific species over others. It's intellectually dishonest to think otherwise. Getting the balance right is what we should be striving for. I'd assume you take antibiotics - lot of death caused there. Why is that OK?

Antibiotics are used to treat a specific infection. You don't take a pill of antibiotics every morning with your coffee.[1]

Insecticides are usually applied pretty indiscriminately.

I think that's quite a difference.

[1] At least that's how they are supposed to be used. In agriculture (again agriculture, is this a pattern?) they are used indiscriminately in many parts of the world because it enables animals to be kept in insanely crowded conditions.

Post reply on HN