Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry • Hacker News Board

Re: Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry

#71

Post by acomjean » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

This is direct fallout from the Marvin Gaye Estate/ Robin Thicke "blurred lines" lawsuit mentioned in the article.

Those songs aren't that similar (the jury didn't even hear both songs if I remember correctly), and after the verdict wasn't corrected on appeal the stage was set for more of these. The "easy money" angle of results (5 million to the estate of a singer for a 70s song.... just get lawyers).

It seems likely we are going to see more and more of these lawsuits. Sort of a sad state.

Re: Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry

#72

Post by coldtea » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

hajile wrote: post #46

ericcholis wrote: post #9

Good video breakdown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ytoUuO-qvg

Rather horrible breakdown IMO. The "prior art" from 1984 he mentions is radically different in the note pattern used which alone defeats that entire line of argument. Similarly, reaching back to classical music to talk about modern synth beats is a red herring. All he succeeded in doing here was showing that there wasn't actually prior art. He does a bit on how the pagan aspects of the lyrics and video are irrelevant…

>The "prior art" from 1984 he mentions is radically different in the note pattern used which alone defeats that entire line of argument.

It's not radically different at all. I'm a musician, but even for a lay person, this is as close as it gets without it being 100% the same.

>Similarly, reaching back to classical music to talk about modern synth beats is a red herring.

This doesn't even make sense. It's like saying that referring to a 18th century invention to invalidate a 2019 patent is a red herring. Music is music.

>The final blow is recognition and feel. A huge number of people would recognize Dark Horse exclusively by the playing of that short set of notes much as they could instantly recognize Billie Jean by its opening rift (or any number of other songs). This alone indicates that the notes in question are more than superficial.

No, it only indicates that these persons have a limited repertoire.

Re: Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry

#73

Post by jordigh » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

How was Flame able to demonstrate that they heard the song before?

Remember that independent discovery is a valid defense a against a copyright infringement claim. Katy Perry's legal defense was that nobody had ever heard Flame's music. The CBC article doesn't seem to indicate how the jury was convinced that Katy Perry's team knew of the other song, except that "obviously they heard it because it was awarded a Grammy". Huh? Is that all it took?

Re: Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry

#74

Post by faissaloo » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

xealgo wrote: post #21

Good artist copy. Great artist steal. However, in this case, I'm hard pressed to believe it's a case of either.

I think the main problem is that the artist would have to at least be good.

Re: Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry

#75

Post by uw_rob » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

120bits wrote: post #22

I was wondering, does Shazam can differentiate well between these two songs? I'm not entirely sure about the internal working of it, but was curious to know how these pattern recognition apps can help in this. Also, reminds me of the Silicon Valley where Richard was able to disproof Patent troll by using his music/search app.

From my understanding, Shazam can differentiate between songs that share samples by doing classification on a windowed section of input. I.e, take 5 seconds of recording, and classify on t=0..2, 1..3, 2..4, 3..5. The idea being that the sample usage won't continue forever, and you will eventually get a new pattern. (You can even use your classifications from t=0..2 as priors for future classifications!).

For an easy intro to how Shazam works, see this: https://www.toptal.com/algorithms/shazam-it-music-processing...

Re: Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry

#76

Post by georgeecollins » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 5:04 PM UTC

I wonder if you could make an AI program to make a bunch (millions)of unique melodies a minute or less and publish them somewhere like YouTube. Then just scan new hit songs and see if they somehow copy what your computer generated..

Re: Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry

#77

Post by camjohnson26 » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 5:05 PM UTC

Anecdotal, but I’m a big fan of Lecrae’s music and Joyful Noise was probably the biggest hit in Christian hip hop of the time. First time I heard Dark Horse on the radio I laughed and told a friend that they totally ripped off Joyful Noise, it was very obvious since that riff is the focal point of the song. Don’t know if I agree with the lawsuit but the similarities are there.

Joyful Noise: https://youtu.be/jTLeHuvHXuk

Dark horse: https://youtu.be/0KSOMA3QBU0

Re: Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry

#78

Post by coldtea » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

faissaloo wrote: post #69

mighty_bander wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say nothing of reggae, dubstep, etc. etc.

Noise should be fine tho

Actually noise is the most homogeneous of all...

Re: Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry

#79

Post by xxs » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

human20190310 wrote: post #65

dnjdrbdhdbs wrote: post #63

The problem is using juries for this. Music copyrights should be adjudicated by a panel of professional musicologists, funded by a cut of the awards. That way there’s at least some consistency. The concept would extend to other disciplines. Of course a purely functional improvement to governance is a political nonstarter in today’s environment.

It was the opinion of a professional musicologist, presented to a jury, that resulted in the lawsuit being successful. At least with a jury there's a chance of calling bullshit, even though it did not occur in this case.

Jury in pretty much any case is a subpar solution. However, patent or copyright ones are total bonkers to be decided by jury panels.

Leaving justice outcome to chance is rather weak way to 'benefit the society'.

Re: Katy Perry's Dark Horse Lawsuit Makes Waves in Music Industry

#80

Post by wrs » Wed, Aug 07, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #51

gregmac wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The video is absolutely worth watching, but one of the more relevant bits is this: > [...] in Dark Horse it's just the background texture for one of the verses. It has the same musical function as a chord progression or a drum groove: it serves to highlight the melody but it's not the song itself. Up until this point it seemed like only melodies could be copyrighted in the composition of song, however the recent cour…

I don't understand why a Jury of Peers [1] wouldn't be comprised of domain experts and not just random people off the street. And it seems like having domain knowledge is likely to get one NOT selected for jury duty. Can any lawyers chime in on this (even armchair hn lawyers)? [1] https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/what-is-a-ju...

Juries are supposed to apply “common sense” as well as evaluate the veracity of testimony. If expert domain knowledge is necessary, expert witnesses will be called to present it. Experts on a jury are a problem because they will essentially provide alternate evidence outside the public court procedure (jury proceedings are secret), and because their expertise is not subject to challenge by the other side. (Imagine the Dunning-Kruger effect in a jury setting.)