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Toni Morrison Has Died

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Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#71

Post by davesmith1983 »

MrRadar wrote: post #66
davesmith1983 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The effects of American slavery linger to this day. Do they? How? > has a more direct impact on their lives than foreign labor exploitation. Apparently slavery that happened over 100 years ago in a first world country where there is relatively good education (a friend of mine is married to a Cambodian woman and she didn't learn how to read until she was 16) is more important than the slavery that is happening all o…

Why are you trying to play the oppression olympics? We can care about multiple things at the same time. Re: the legacy of slavery, this USA Today article is a good starting point[1]. Additionally, it's plainly obvious that black Americans today have much less wealth than white Americans. When whites settled in the US they were often given farm land or brought capital from abroad to start businesses. Black slaves had…

> Why are you trying to play the oppression olympics? We can care about multiple things at the same time.

Right I am no longer interested in talking to you. Pretending something is whataboutism when I am trying to bring some perspective is a nonsense.

As for your stats. I've seen stats that if Black couples get married and have a household they do just as well as White couples from a similar background (not I am not going to trawl the internet to cherry pick some proof).

>A lso, you did not provide an example of black racism (which you have referenced in at least two posts as being equal to white racism).

I never claim it was equal, I never claimed to know the proportions. TBH I am getting quite fed up of someone constantly putting words into my mouth.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#72

Post by rhcom2 »

davesmith1983 wrote: post #67
ergothus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is really astounding that someone can spend so much time logic chopping and fail to understand what I was actually saying. Perhaps because I was interpreting it in the context of the comment you were replying to (mine). Poverty is devastating. True...and not related at all to what I said. I didn't mention economics or finances AT ALL save to mention that my comments were true regardless of my financial backgroun…

> Citation needed - at this point you're denying misrepresentation of minorities in popular media, which is such a well-documented problem and so obviously observable that your unsupported assertions would be laughable if the issue wasn't related to tragedy. Sorry I don't see it. All through my life (I am almost 40 years old) there has been plenty of black people on the television and in films and most of the time it…

It's not hard to find actual numbers on representation of minorities in the media. Our anecdotes have more to do with our own blind spots than actual real life and don't prove anything.

"In the UK we had a black rapper head up the largest outdoor festival in England."

Again, anecdotes don't prove anything.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#73

Post by bubblewrap »

TheodolphusRose wrote: post #59
bubblewrap wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for fun, going with the scenario. Why not? Edit: rate limited by HN, so here is my reply to the question below: Racist - seriously? So "momma" is not a word that is ever used? Is it a word from the AAVE - so why would it be mocking the AAVE? I'm not a native speaker of English. But honestly, I don't care about that level of political correctness. I doubt that using "momma" is as big of a deal as you make it soun…

In response to your second edit, I disagree with your claim that choosing to use the term “mother” vs “momma” is neutral or symmetric. When you choose to use the common term “mother,” it implies nothing in particular. Intentionally choosing to use the word “momma” on the other hand is not a neutral decision. You specifically chose to use it to refer to Black mothers. And your statement about “denying black identity”…

The example on Wiktionary given for momma is "My momma's so great: she bakes me cookies every week."

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/momma

As I said, I am not a native speaker, so I don't really know how momma is typically used (if at all). It was more of a spontaneous use on a whim. But I also haven't found any indication yet that it is a derogatory term.

Sorry I still think the "offense taken" is overblown. I am also not concerned about not offending anybody at all. Frankly I think many people who feel offended about certain things perhaps should just get over themselves. I mean in this case, is momma used in the real world? If so, then I think it should be OK to use it. I don't believe in censoring statements about the real world.

Thanks for trying to explain, though.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#74

Post by rc_hadoken »

eitland wrote: post #25

> I had to consider the idea: how would those books have affected me if all characters looked nothing like me? FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males. I guess in my case it was more important to relate to their background and their skills (or lack of ;-) than who their parents were, and where they grew up.

I'm black African. And most of my role models don't look like me. Musashi, Taleb, Frederick Douglas is in there as an exception etc. But when I look at someone who has accomplished what I want to the first thing that adds to motivation is not that they look like me...this is a wildly debilitating mindset I know it exists but lets not make it out to be healthy.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#75

Post by moosey »

ergothus wrote: post #36
eitland wrote: post #25

> I had to consider the idea: how would those books have affected me if all characters looked nothing like me? FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males. I guess in my case it was more important to relate to their background and their skills (or lack of ;-) than who their parents were, and where they grew up.

> FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males. But you didn't and don't lack for options. I'm a straight white man from America. No matter what personal, family, and economic difficulties I've faced: - I have literal decades of seeing other white men in a variety of roles. I can pick and choose from the stereotypes I want to put in high…

Your comment is a powerful acknowledgement of the dominance of your group (white male) via a technique that I've only seen a few times: specifically describing some of the perquisites of your position in society.

As I've dealt with various issues throughout my life, I've had identity crises where I've had to deal with similar introspection due to being a male, which comes with a number of ... social benefits (I feel gross saying it). while I'm mostly white, the dark skin color that I had as a child set me apart, and I think prepared me for the introspection that I had to go through.

Was there a specific book or experience that aided you? I'm always hunting down challenges to what I perceive as natural, normal or inevitable.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#76

Post by lwhalen »

I could never get into her work, personally. I was forced to read 'Beloved' in high school, and found it dense, poorly written, and just unpleasant to read. I know she's won a ton of awards, so it's probably just me. Sorry to hear she passed though.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#77

Post by commandlinefan »

lwhalen wrote: post #76

I could never get into her work, personally. I was forced to read 'Beloved' in high school, and found it dense, poorly written, and just unpleasant to read. I know she's won a ton of awards, so it's probably just me. Sorry to hear she passed though.

I had never heard of her, or any of her books - I went to primary school in the 80’s, though. Is she somebody that’s only recently been included in the curriculum in the past few decades?

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#78

Post by MrRadar »

bubblewrap wrote: post #73
TheodolphusRose wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In response to your second edit, I disagree with your claim that choosing to use the term “mother” vs “momma” is neutral or symmetric. When you choose to use the common term “mother,” it implies nothing in particular. Intentionally choosing to use the word “momma” on the other hand is not a neutral decision. You specifically chose to use it to refer to Black mothers. And your statement about “denying black identity”…

The example on Wiktionary given for momma is "My momma's so great: she bakes me cookies every week." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/momma As I said, I am not a native speaker, so I don't really know how momma is typically used (if at all). It was more of a spontaneous use on a whim. But I also haven't found any indication yet that it is a derogatory term. Sorry I still think the "offense taken" is overblown. I am als…

"Momma" is used much more frequently in AAVE than General American English. Your use of it in this context comes across as being mocking of black Americans. (Perhaps the missing bit of cultural context is that racists often use exaggerated AAVE to mock black Americans.)

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#79

Post by bubblewrap »

MrRadar wrote: post #78
bubblewrap wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The example on Wiktionary given for momma is "My momma's so great: she bakes me cookies every week." https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/momma As I said, I am not a native speaker, so I don't really know how momma is typically used (if at all). It was more of a spontaneous use on a whim. But I also haven't found any indication yet that it is a derogatory term. Sorry I still think the "offense taken" is overblown. I am als…

"Momma" is used much more frequently in AAVE than General American English. Your use of it in this context comes across as being mocking of black Americans. (Perhaps the missing bit of cultural context is that racists often use exaggerated AAVE to mock black Americans.)

I've never heard of AAVE before. Wikipedia claims it is "natively spoken, particularly in urban communities, by most working- and middle-class African Americans and some Black Canadians" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Vernacular_En...

So if it is so commonly used, why on earth should it be offensive to refer to it? In what way would you consider my statement "mocking"? I don't think it is very relevant what racists commonly do. I don't feel obliged to obtain knowledge about the lifestyle of racists, and neither should anybody else.

Even more interesting in the context of the original complaint of there not being enough books with black heroes. So if a white writer would write such a book, they wouldn't be allowed to use the word "momma" or refer to anything that PoC might do that is different from white people? You are creating an impossible world.

Re: Toni Morrison Has Died

#80

Post by MrRadar »

bubblewrap wrote: post #79
MrRadar wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Momma" is used much more frequently in AAVE than General American English. Your use of it in this context comes across as being mocking of black Americans. (Perhaps the missing bit of cultural context is that racists often use exaggerated AAVE to mock black Americans.)

I've never heard of AAVE before. Wikipedia claims it is "natively spoken, particularly in urban communities, by most working- and middle-class African Americans and some Black Canadians" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_Vernacular_En... So if it is so commonly used, why on earth should it be offensive to refer to it? In what way would you consider my statement "mocking"? I don't think it is very relevan…

> I don't think it is very relevant what racists commonly do.

In an English-based discussion entirely around issues of race the ways racists commonly use the English language is very relevant. Using the word "momma" by itself is not offensive however in this context it is slightly offensive because the way you used it is exactly how a racist would use it to mock a black person.

I don't think people here are even taking a lot of offense at your use of the word so much as your extreme defensiveness over your use of it. Please take this opportunity to reflect on why you chose to be so defensive instead of taking a mea culpa (and, if you are genuinely confused by why people are offended, asking for clarification).

> So if a white writer would write such a book, they wouldn't be allowed to use the word "momma" or refer to anything that PoC might do that is different from white people?

This is, in fact, a complicated question. Generally the way to avoid being offensive in that situation is to write your characters respectfully as human beings first and foremost, to study portrayals written by members of the group you are portraying to see how they portray themselves, and to ask members of the minority group you are portraying to review your work for any unintentional offensiveness before publication.

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