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Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#71

Post by gambiting »

mrtksn wrote: post #59
gambiting wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "call X" where X doesn't have an English name(and Siri is set to English) is just bound to fail. It's like the most basic functionality that all voice assistants fail at miserably - google assistant is equally garbage at it.

These assistants are really not working well in multi-lingual settings but I suspect that the stuff Apple was doing wouldn't improve it. Some functions are disabled if you have Siri in one language and your device in another.

But I mean, surely it's not that unusual to have English as the language set to everything, to live in an English speaking country, and yet either have a foreign name yourself or just be friends with someone who does. And it's not that Siri/Google Assistant don't recognize those names period - they would, had they been set to the language those names originate from. But if you're set to English then forget it. And yes, I understand this is a difficult problem to solve, but I had I not known anything about internal workings of technology and was just a regular customer, I would absolutely consider the ability to call someone "basic functionality".

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#72

Post by La1n »

AstralStorm wrote: post #66
pluma wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's in mangers best business interests to ignore ethics when they stand in the way of profits. They have a massive conflict of interest. That said, of course there are business ethics courses but sadly economics are generally taught as being inherently amoral, especially in the US. Changing this would mean nothing less than abandoning laissez-faire capitalism, which would be a massive cultural shift in not just econ…

It is not anyone's duty. You're not obligated by law to do it. In military, your duty is to obey orders of superior. If you break that, you will get removed. In business, your duty is to yourself and to business (shareholders) or to superiors. See above. You will get fired or forced to quit. As a counterexample, medical practitioners have a duty to intervene when it's not endangering their lives, in medical emergenci…

A moral duty is still a duty even if you are not obligated by law to do it. Edit: Most definitions of duty definitely include moral and lawful duty.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#73

Post by tareqak »

jammygit wrote: post #51
Iv wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We really need mandatory ethics courses in CS. And a ritual like they have in Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring

One Canadian student engineering team recently won an engineering competition by creating a cell phone tracking system for an airport. The ethics are pretend, the engineering association only cares about punishing people for mistakes (at least, as I'm told by the seniors I've spoken to).

I graduated from a Canadian engineering undergraduate program in software engineering, and I have my Iron Ring. The ethics in the more established branches engineering (chemical, electrical, mechanical) are definitely not pretend, and are more rigorous. Software engineering is considerably newer so the codifying the ethics there are definitely a work in progress. One thing that I will say is that the engineering ethics case studies that I remember reading mostly related to duty of care to the public vs. the employer’s interests. I don’t remember an engineering ethics case study that had government or a branch of it pitted against the public good.

In addition, the engineering association is less inclined to protect ethical engineers after they’ve done the right thing as opposed to going after unethical engineers after they’ve been caught. On this issue, I personally think they have work to do, but the organization might consider that sort of action outside their mandate.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#74

Post by dpau »

probably_wrong wrote: post #19

So far, most of the comments here are a good example of both why this happened and why it will happen again. When people complained that putting microphones in your home 24/7 was creepy, the response was "that's nonsense, Siri is not sending anything unless you specifically ask for it". When it turned out that it does send things you didn't intend, the response was "well, it's not like anyone is listening anyway". No…

while i don't disagree with ethics courses (for everyone!), it's a bit like telling individuals to recycle more in order to solve climate change. until meaningful regulations are put in place to punish companies for ethics & privacy violations (something more than a slap on the wrist as is currently common), and until heads of companies and management are held accountable, companies will just keep moving forward and replace any workers who refuse to go along..

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#75

Post by germanier »

AstralStorm wrote: post #63
arrrg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers have a lot of power (because they do the actual work and have all the power over how something is actually implemented in the end) and share a lot of responsibility. Additionally they are often the only ones who can be aware of certain ethical issues and concerns. If they don’t bring it up others might not be able to even perceive the ethical issue because it comes down to implementation details. I would a…

Developers have no power other than quit, which is not always financially possible. And as we are well paid, there are enough replacements. But not necessarily always good job offers. (And word gets out. You can get informally blacklisted.) The only other option, still risking the job, is whistleblowing. That potentially also breaks NDA and employment contracts. We have no power over deadlines (cutting privacy featur…

Developers always have to power to just not implement the feature.

If you choose to work on such features, remember it's a choice you have made. You may come to the conclusion that your personal gains outweigh the damage you create to other people but it's still your responsibility. You can't delegate that away to sleep better at night.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#76

Post by rimliu »

gambiting wrote: post #52
kalms wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are basic things to you?

Saying "call X" where X doesn't have an English name(and Siri is set to English) is just bound to fail. It's like the most basic functionality that all voice assistants fail at miserably - google assistant is equally garbage at it.

Was not there an option to teach Siri? Or am I imagining things?

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#77

Post by AstralStorm »

9HZZRfNlpR wrote: post #65
AstralStorm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers have no power other than quit, which is not always financially possible. And as we are well paid, there are enough replacements. But not necessarily always good job offers. (And word gets out. You can get informally blacklisted.) The only other option, still risking the job, is whistleblowing. That potentially also breaks NDA and employment contracts. We have no power over deadlines (cutting privacy featur…

The vast majority of mass surveillance tech is programmed in Silicon Valley. These are the most privileged and intelligent programmers out there, they absolutely do have power, or at minimum a choice, to quit and get another well paying moral job.

Silicon Valley, where developers live in trailer parks? (San Jose for example.)

Silicon Valley, where the ethos is to get rich quick by accepting personal degradation and eschewing morality?

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#78

Post by ekianjo »

IfOnlyYouKnew wrote: post #60
abhisuri97 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minor point: While I do agree that ethics course should be a part of CS curricula, wouldn’t managers be the ones who likely pushed for the pattern you’re remarking upon? (Ie ethics classes would be more useful for them?)

Tangentially related: The Technical University of Berlin is considered to have one of Germany's best departments of philosophy. The reason: after World War 2, the university was located in the British-controlled sector, and their administration made philosophy mandatory for all students. Because never again should young people be given the power of an engineering/science education without any regard to the ethical im…

> have one of Germany's best departments of philosophy.

So what? Philosophy has barely anything to do with ethics. You can study philosophers that can argue for complete opposite sides of the same point at hand, so it does not give you any indication as to what is right or wrong.

And Germany has a pretty poor record so far in terms of privacy protections/provisions, so I am not sure there is any indication that post-WW2 or post-RDA experiences have had much impact.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#79

Post by tareqak »

panic wrote: post #35
probably_wrong wrote: post #19

So far, most of the comments here are a good example of both why this happened and why it will happen again. When people complained that putting microphones in your home 24/7 was creepy, the response was "that's nonsense, Siri is not sending anything unless you specifically ask for it". When it turned out that it does send things you didn't intend, the response was "well, it's not like anyone is listening anyway". No…

I agree with you, but I don't think mandatory ethics courses will be enough. We need strong institutions which can enforce norms by having the power to kick people out (like bar associations can disbar lawyers).

I personally think ethical behaviour needs to be rewarded and unethical behaviour needs to be punished so that the cost-benefit analysis fits what we all want to see in the world. Otherwise, we get what we don’t want.

Re: Apple suspends Siri response grading in response to privacy concerns

#80

Post by ekianjo »

probably_wrong wrote: post #19

So far, most of the comments here are a good example of both why this happened and why it will happen again. When people complained that putting microphones in your home 24/7 was creepy, the response was "that's nonsense, Siri is not sending anything unless you specifically ask for it". When it turned out that it does send things you didn't intend, the response was "well, it's not like anyone is listening anyway". No…

> We really need mandatory ethics courses in CS.

This is almost never going to happen because ethics=morals and there's no more middle ground to define what is right or wrong nowadays. You can see that already in every societal issue that divides people. Ethics courses would fall in the same pitfall: what is right or wrong depends on your system of values, and there's not much homogeneity in that realm now.

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