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Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

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Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#71
post #2

> Because the fault was triggered by specific streams of erroneous flight data, a new software patch can be devised that monitors the computer for that highly unusual condition and prevents movement of the stabilizer when it occurs, one of the people said. Oh man. That sounds like a mess.

Yep. At this point in time they should have plenty of test cases and regression tests which should catch such situations. While Boeing may feel they are doing a lot of testing in the simulator - there are way fewer simulators staffed with test pilots than there are 737 MAX out there. When such errors surface at this time in manual testing it calls into question the development process. And a lot of the trust - aka. certification - is based on that process.

As I have mentioned here before: The angle of attack sensor was never intended for the purpose it is now used for - military aircraft may do such things but not as an afterthought and not connected with a control surface which has a lot of delay (trim wheel winding. Delay is a major factor in destabilizing control loops). Equivalent sensors are the airspeed pitot tubes but they are a much more robust concept. Even they have brought down airplanes. We lack sufficient real world (heat, humidity, snow) information about the quality of the sensor data even before it may get distorted by transmission and processing on its way to the control law. Cleaning and validating sensor data is tricky under the best of circumstances. It does not sound like they have a handle on it.

Hi Boeing, what real world data from mounted angle of attack sensors have you analyzed? Why do you believe this data sufficiently represents climate zones and flight conditions (take-off, landing, turbulence, malfunction modes)? How do you clean and validate the sensor data? Please explain, because otherwise I won't step into one of these machines.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#72
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of those fixes where they add up the value of human life if something goes wrong and say 'OK we can handle that, ship it"

Well so far they've been lucky because they only killed brown people in a far away country. Those don't count for much.

Unacceptable - please don't bring those sort of views to HN.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#73

I really can't help to think that the design and production of this plane was rushed. They used a one sensor input to MCAS because the FAA wouldn't certify a two sensor input without requiring a level D certification which meant sim training for pilots. This latest revelation in the article only strengthens my belief it was rushed and possibly to the point that it was irresponsible.

That's seriously overdiplomatic. The plane was rushed and it was constructed very badly. It was absolutely irresponsible to bring it into service, it's not a question anymore. It's a plane that crashes itself automatically into the ground and that killed over 300 people.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#74
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is (from what I understand as layman) that to avoid recertification they kept their old computer hardware from earlier 737 generations, and added more and more tasks to do for it. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/26/business/boeing-737-max-f... (somewhere in the middle: "The issue discovered last week is linked to the data-processing speed of a specific flight control computer chip, according to the two peop…

That's surreal - avionics should run on hard real time. (Whether it's offline scheduled and thus "impossible" to miss a deadline, or if it's "soft" realtime and merely testing ensures this, is not the important part. The important part is that it should never miss a deadline.)

I can understand it looks weird but it isn't. A faster processor has no more real time guarantees than a slower processor from the 80s

Of course, the faster one can do more stuff in less time, but for flying an airplane (or going to the moon) the amount of computing power needed is much less than people imagine.

The issue here is adding more computing into an aging platform. But there's nothing inherently wrong into using an older platform into the flight computer.

Now I'm not sure if for certification purposes they would be allowed to replace it with modern hardware but just keeping the functionality the same, I believe the answer would be yes, that they are allowed (but they probably didn't want to rewrite the sw and recertify the hw)

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#75
post #36
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a crash on the 737MAX effect operations on 737NG aircraft, or older ones - what suddenly makes it uneconomical?

People's refusal to fly in anything with "737" in its name.

The whitewash is already starting.

The 737 Max name is now being replaced with the 737-8200 term (1). I assume they are hoping that 737-8200 is not tarnished like 737 Max is.

1 - https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ryanair...

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#76
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of those fixes where they add up the value of human life if something goes wrong and say 'OK we can handle that, ship it"

Well so far they've been lucky because they only killed brown people in a far away country. Those don't count for much.

Exactly. Imagine those 2 downed jets were full of Americans or Europeans. The governments would have hit Boeing so hard people would remember that for a century.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the human life calculation worked well this time. As far as I see, Boeing lost more than the sum of the human lives; they also lost reputation for everything new they’ve designed in the last 7 years being corrupted, and they also engulfed the reputation of FAA with them, whose agents would fit the definition of “corrupted” by any people’s definition (I know, they are not, they just used agents of Boeing t…

There is so much of U.K. which is incredible and depressing at the same time. Completely pummelled by war, (receiving no aid like West Germany did) they managed to, in 1949, release a Space Age passenger commercial airliner, defining the genre. It looks modern even today. Yet, fumbled the ball. They also had a space program, closed it down after their first satellite, which was a success. Concorde! (With France.) It…

Last week I was at Munich, with +40 other Europeans: French, Spanish, Italian, German, Dutch, Swedes and of course Irish and British. As I was sipping my beer at a biergarten I realized we were all speaking English, in Germany, surrounded by people whose native language wasn't English, right when Brexit is about to happen, just when any British could say: we won. But no, as you said, they just fumbled the ball, again.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn’t aware the compute power was low on the 737. Interested if you have some more info? Always thought they would spec a substantially more processing capability than required. I understand economics are a factor but surely it’s not through necessity to save power?

NASA supposedly bought 386 chips from eBay The lesson is real engineers do not need row hammer afflicted processing power, they are not running crappy JavaScript. They built something that works and over engineered the hell out it. Ford in Detroit once lost a mainframe. For 20 years

To the person that consistently downvoted and admitted to stalking me.

Hi fuck yourself

Edit I shared some info and got downvoted. I have been stalked on this website. The mods need to get their shit together. Apparently I pissed off the shitty mods and someone that works at Facebook.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well so far they've been lucky because they only killed brown people in a far away country. Those don't count for much.

Excuse you?? I've just reported you for this despicable comment.

I don't agree with how they phrased it, but I think they are sarcastically referring to how the media treats disasters in third world countries and doesn't actually believe that.

If the accidents happened in the US I imagine there would be a lot more media and legal scrutiny.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the human life calculation worked well this time. As far as I see, Boeing lost more than the sum of the human lives; they also lost reputation for everything new they’ve designed in the last 7 years being corrupted, and they also engulfed the reputation of FAA with them, whose agents would fit the definition of “corrupted” by any people’s definition (I know, they are not, they just used agents of Boeing t…

There is so much of U.K. which is incredible and depressing at the same time. Completely pummelled by war, (receiving no aid like West Germany did) they managed to, in 1949, release a Space Age passenger commercial airliner, defining the genre. It looks modern even today. Yet, fumbled the ball. They also had a space program, closed it down after their first satellite, which was a success. Concorde! (With France.) It…

“The largest recipient of Marshall Plan money was the United Kingdom (receiving about 26% of the total), followed by France (18%) and West Germany (11%).” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
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