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Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

hongkongfp.com

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Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#71

Post by lm28469 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #39
lm28469 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, more guns is always the solution !!! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/2010_hom...

It's a hell of a lot harder (or at least more costly) to violently impose your will on people who can violently defend themselves.

Do you believe the US population has any kind of chance against the US army ?

It created an arm race between civilians and the authorities. The basic police in the US is better equipped than the military of most EU countries.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#72

Post by sho »

riffraff wrote: post #5

I am very curious, but worried, of the situation in HK. Concretely, it seems HKers can protest as much as they want, but when push comes to shove, the PRC will just end up crushing them and the parts of democracy they still have. I can't imagine how they may get any other outcome. Even if I wish they could just gain independence, it seems unlikely, and it's not like any foreign power would go to war to protect HK.

Your analysis is 100% correct.

The handover was more than 20 years ago. The horizon for total integration was 50 years. We're more than 40% through. Pre-handover was "britain in asia". The endgame is "full integration".

HK is nowhere near 40% full integration. Progress has fallen behind, and now they are catching up. The wishful thinking of HK residents doesn't change anything. The writing has been on the wall for decades. There's only one way this ends.

Personally I hate all of this. I loved HK being its own little out-of-place enclave in the orient. But that all changed in 1997; the script has been written, and events will grind forward to the inevitable conclusion. Most people I know in HK are thinking about their "Plan B". They would be advised to hurry it up.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#73

Post by clouddrover »

briandear wrote: post #18
sgjohnson wrote: post #7

Seems like they could use the 2nd amendment there.

That is exactly the reason the 2nd Amendment exists in the US constitution. It certainly wasn’t to protect target shooting and hunting, but to protect against precisely the sort of oppression happening in Hong Kong. Governments should fear the people, not the other way around. The 2nd Amendment is a check on tyranny. Those that are downvoting the parent, what’s the solution? In China, you can’t protest your way to fr…

> Governments should fear the people, not the other way around. The 2nd Amendment is a check on tyranny.

How fearful is the US government of Americans? Consider:

- The US government surveils Americans when it wants, as much as it wants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite...

- US police kill about 1,000 Americans every year. US police kill more Americans than terrorists do: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/police...

- US presidents assassinate US citizens without consequence: https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-o...

- The US government can search you or your devices at the border without cause, even if you're a citizen: https://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/16/us/border-legal-rights-fa...

I see plenty of brazenness in the US government's behaviour. I don't see much fear.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#74

Post by nabla9 »

keanzu wrote: post #42

Excellent analysis here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20492145 The Chinese and HK governments have realized they've lost the culture wars and public opinion so they've resorted to the tried and tested handbook of authoritarian governments, to create a cycle of violence to create justification for cracking down. This is a provocation. Protesters will now counter arm themselves with similar bats and stick…

Non-violent resistance is an option, but it requires very tough attitude.

If people would just take the beating and lay down, like Gandhi-led resistance against Brits did, it could break down the violent strategy.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#75

Post by salawat »

cgriswald wrote: post #45
lm28469 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, more guns is always the solution !!! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/2010_hom...

Voting and protesting are resulting in oppression and physical assault. Your argument, such as it is, is equivalent to saying people should not be allowed to defend themselves, because someone might get hurt. It rests on the hidden assumption that guns cause violence, which isn't supported by the evidence you offer; and flies in the face of the actual violence in HK.

Too add on to your point, there is also another hidden assumption:

That violence is never the answer.

In civil society, we like to preach that, but as soon as the basic pillars of civility disappear, violence is unfortunately the only answer.

Worrisome times indeed.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#76

Post by novok »

Drakim wrote: post #65
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a hell of a lot harder (or at least more costly) to violently impose your will on people who can violently defend themselves.

A civilian population armed with guns to the teeth will still not be able to stand up even a little to a real well organized military with gear. Maybe it would be more costly, but the escalation would also provide the justification to strike down the population completely and simply murder all the protesters. Instead of reading about peaceful protesters being attacked you'd read about the military taking out insurgen…

Afghanistan and iraq would like to talk to you

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#77

Post by lm28469 »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #27
lm28469 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, more guns is always the solution !!! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/2010_hom...

Regardless of what you think of 2A, this is exactly the sort of situation it was designed to address. In Hong Kong, you have a completely unarmed population demanding democracy. Being oppressed by an (in the particular case, arguably foreign) government, with a long history of slaughtering unarmed populations who demand democracy.

What if the 60% of US citizens who don't approve of Trump want to overthrow his government ? Would that be part of the 2nd amendment ? Where do you draw the line ?

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#78

Post by cgriswald »

Drakim wrote: post #65
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a hell of a lot harder (or at least more costly) to violently impose your will on people who can violently defend themselves.

A civilian population armed with guns to the teeth will still not be able to stand up even a little to a real well organized military with gear. Maybe it would be more costly, but the escalation would also provide the justification to strike down the population completely and simply murder all the protesters. Instead of reading about peaceful protesters being attacked you'd read about the military taking out insurgen…

> Instead of reading about peaceful protesters being attacked you'd read about the military taking out insurgents.

In both cases, you'd read what the oppressor wants you to read.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#79

Post by chewz »

benj111 wrote: post #34

Is there a symbolism with the white? Or was it an arbitrary colour? I believe Brown was chosen for the Nazi SA uniforms because they were cheap.

> I believe Brown was chosen for the Nazi SA uniforms because they were cheap.

No, it was taken from Harvard's University colors, I believe.

> Hanfstaengl composed both Brownshirt and Hitler Youth marches patterned after his Harvard football songs and, he later claimed, devised the chant "Sieg Heil"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Hanfstaengl

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#80

Post by navigatesol »

RankingMember wrote: post #54
MadSudaca wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The progressives in HN downvote you, but the truth is that being able to use violence to protect your individual freedoms is instrumental to democracy. Few places can boast the level of stability that EEUU has had in the last 150 years. Many were taken over by tyrants and armed mobs, than eventually chose their tyrant. It's no coincidence that in Venezuela the regime disarmed the people with a law that according to t…

Do we really think that armed citizens would have a chance against the current US military? Weaponry has come pretty far since the days the 2nd amendment was created.

>Do we really think that armed citizens would have a chance against the current US military?

Would it surprise you to learn that the "US military" aren't a bunch of mindless drones, but are in fact family, friends, neighbors, co-workers and fellow citizens? And that they wouldn't necessarily feel great about slaughtering their fellow countrymen?

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