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Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

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71–80 of 256 posts

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#71
post #7

The benefit in tech is options. Don't like your job, get another one. Don't like your boss, get another one. For many locations it's just the matter of turning a button on Linkedin or for many people sending some emails. That keeps people idealistic, vocal and demanding of the behavior from their employer/bosses. This is not the norm in other business functions. Unfortunately.

that's all fine and good but it won't last. once the labor supply catches up with the demand (and it will -> just look at the vast number of new engineers created in the last 5 years from 2019 Dev survey), it will be all over and all that bargaining power will go away. We're already starting to see the beginning of that with the awful hiring practices we've been seeing.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#72
post #20

Biggest question is if a union or union-like system makes sense in companies where the average tenure is ~2-3 years mostly due to employee choice.

Is the average tenure truly due to "employee choice" or simply a result of the system we created?

Good point. Employees are often promised very interesting projects, career growth and salary increases. Very often it turns out to be a bunch of lies and people move on and the cycle continues.

Despite all the claims on HN on how good life is for software engineers, our field has very high burnout rates and it's very ageist.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#73
My Dad owns a construction company in a highly unionized region. He is an advocate for unions, although he acknowledges that quality varies among them. That said, many of the conditions where unions are beneficial don't seem to apply in tech:

* Vocational training: unions in our area run schools to train craftsman (e.g. carpenters). This increases productivity and screens for quality.

* Shifting workforce: Construction companies expand/contract as they get big jobs. The union is a clearinghouse that enables tradespeople to switch between companies as they expand/contract. The union also helps by running benefit programs that travel with the workers.

* Commodity-ish labor: Most carpenters have about the same productivity, so it makes sense to negotiate their compensation in bulk. Unions don't work as well when productivity/value varies greatly between workers.

I also worked as an apprentice carpenter for several summers during college. I wouldn't say that the carpenters I worked with had a glowing view of the union. They seemed suspicious that the union reps were corrupt, and talked about how they would "shut down the job" over minor union infractions. They also believed the "hall" was corrupt/political in how it matched carpenters who were out of work to jobs. Several were also contemptuous of what they saw as the union discouraging hard work (if you were working hard, you were "ruining the job.")

The main point I am trying to make is that unions are complex from both the employer and employee side.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#74

“In other cases, highly compensated engineers may see themselves as independent operators who have plenty of leverage on their own and thus do not need to join a union effort.” This is definitely my feeling. When I can just open up LinkedIn and browse all the unsolicited interview requests I get, I don’t end up feeling like I really need a union to protect my current job - I can always just leave and go somewhere els…

> I can always just leave and go somewhere else if I’m unhappy.

A common refrain, and not entirely incorrect. It's true that I personally lean on marketplace bargaining power when making politically risky workplace decisions, e.g. pushing for a product or process change.

It has its limits, however, as I've lightly addressed in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20384306

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#75
post #37

There has to be a balance of power between labor and management. When management has too much power, that power will be abused. When labor has too much power, that power will be abused. Unions make sense when labor doesn't have any power. Do programmers have enough power? I'd say yes. Maybe not across the board but -- in general -- yes. We aren't coal miners, that's for sure.

It depends on the specific industry in tech. Do programmers in general tech startups have enough power? I’d say yes too. Do programmers in the gaming industry have enough power? Definitely not.

The gaming industry has an interesting problem: a lot of fresh college grads that want to work on games because they are passionate about games.

In that case, I'm unsure of how unionizing would help much, as publishers could simply invest in games from non-union shops, and happily abandon the studios that are unionized.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#76
post #65
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the long term, you may not want to switch companies. It forces upon you a whole lot of unexpected costs, even accounting for a higher pay.

And staying at the same employer indefinitely is a sort of soul crushing purgatory in my mind. Software work is one of the few industries where you can completely change the business problem you're addressing by changing employers without your skill set being irrelevant. I love the fact that if I grow tired of the industry the company I'm working at is servicing, I can easily move to another employer with a totally d…

Having a union doesn't change that option for you.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#77
post #19

Maybe unionization needs a disrupt? I'm not against unionization in a lot of industries, but it just doesn't make sense in its current form for the tech scene or any other high demand position. It feels like an outdated mechanism used for people who were happy to sit in the same role, doing the same thing, for 45yrs.

Startup idea: an app for employees to organize anonymously. Not a legal union. But an app that can send to an employer this message: "95% of your employees disagree with this issue" Basically centralized communication through voting without the need for union bureaucracy.

The app can optionally take the next step and help employees become a legal union but before that it can function as basically anonymous Slack with polls that allow for majority opinions to be discussed openly and safely.

Even issues like "95% of employees think the coffee machine is shit we need it fixed" can be addressed more quickly.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#78
post #68
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How shortsighted: "We can form a union when we're in a disadvantageous position." There's plenty of stuff that software engineers could want to improve today around oncall, long hours, IP restrictions, non-competes, pay transparency, parental leave, equity, promotion and career management, educational benefits, age/gender/racial/etc discrimination, health care, etc. When we're in a position of power is a great time f…

If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company. It's not that hard. And I don't pay any dues to a union for that right. Non-competes are unenforceable in California. Do you actually think that writing software is going to be come an unskilled job some day?

>If I'm not happy with my company, I leave the company.

This presupposes that you'll have a list of companies to join that have all the benefits that you want.

> Non-competes are unenforceable in California.

Great. Tech work happens nationwide. You could say, "I got mine in California" or you could help pull up others. I believe that it's worthwhile, sometimes, for me to spend some of my income to help others reach a better station.

> Do you actually think that writing software is going to be come an unskilled job some day?

Do you not? Also, there are plenty of workers in tech who aren't software developers. We should be helping them get benefits as well.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#79

Biggest question is if a union or union-like system makes sense in companies where the average tenure is ~2-3 years mostly due to employee choice.

When your only reliable way to get a pay bump is switching jobs adopting any system that ties pay to tenure seems awfully synonymous with pulling up the ladder behind one's self.

Not sure where "tying pay to tenure" came up, unless that's how you view what unions do? A union just means a group of employees negotiating as a unit, what changes they ask for isn't dictated in advance.

Re: Employee activism in tech stops short of organizing unions

#80
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This current state of affairs gives employees a lot of power, as you observed, but it's important to realize it will not last. The downturn will come. The question is whether we want to use our current ephemeral labor power to protect ourselves when the downturn comes, because organization will be 100x more difficult when things go to shit and people don't think they have the luxury of risking their career to build a…

There's a dichotomy in software development between the developers who represent single points of failure in an organization and the increasing number of "replaceable" developers i.e. developers versed only in popular frameworks or who hold introductory/recent-grad levels of domain knowledge with no desire to go further. I think right now were in a "golden age" where the latter group still holds power and can command…

This exists in all industries. It is called experience.

Developers convincing themselves that they're single points of failure is arrogance, IMO. 99.9% of the time if you leave then someone can step right up and take your place. Oh sure there will be costs, lost productivity, maybe an outage, but the world keeps turning. So go ahead and take that vacation.

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