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I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

nytimes.com

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Re: I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

#71

Post by Dayshine »

rayiner wrote: post #57
Dayshine wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think all the lawyer + law professor + writers can not have kids and we'll be fine. I'm not saying people that want to work 40/50 hour weeks shouldn't have kids. I'm saying people who want to work 80 hour weeks shouldn't have kids. They probably shouldn't have dogs either...

If you’re going to assert that a group of people should forgo a major aspect of life, it’s incumbent on you to actually provide evidence that shows concrete and major harms from that combination of life choices. And that evidence just doesn’t exist. In most situations, if you tell people they shouldn’t do X without citing concrete evidence that X is bad, your viewpoint won’t be taken seriously. In the area of parenti…

It's 1am so you get the first result I found. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027795360...

Let me know if you don't have access to the journal.

That's 2-3 times increased chance of measurable mental health problems if parents work outside of 9-5

Re: I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

#72

Post by wishinghand »

rayiner wrote: post #64
jedberg wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think the immigrant parents that own a Chinese restaurant open seven days a week make it to any of their kids school functions or camping trips? Are they being irreparably damaged? Based on my experience going to college with a few kids like that, yes. They all resented their childhood and the fact that the only way to see their parents was to work in the restaurant.

Yet they’re in college. Their parents having prioritized work over their kids undoubtedly will allow those kids to live an immensely better life than they would have otherwise. There’s millions of people in the world that would trade places with them in a heartbeat. One of my fears is that my kids will learn these bad American ideas from media. I saw my daughter watching a Disney show (Bunk’d), where a high achieving…

> No wonder China is eating our lunch!

Slave like conditions can do that to a more moderate work-life balance culture.

Re: I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

#73

Post by wishinghand »

rayiner wrote: post #60
yulaow wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A thing is "inflated expectations for parenting", another thing is the person who wrote the article which has three different jobs (she could easily drop two and still manage to bring home more than enough money, but she doesn't want to for selfish reasons... Which are totally ok if you are not a divorced parent of two very young kids) and, as she herself said, prioritize all of them over her children because she pre…

The “selfish” remark rings pretty hollow when you’re talking about someone that is literally spending her time freeing wrongfully convicted people. What Ms. Bazelon is doing is the opposite of selfish. She’s providing for her family, serving her profession, and serving her community. She’s teaching her kids good morals by example: hard work and service. What kind of terrible lesson would it be to her children if she…

> What kind of terrible lesson would it be to her children if she taught them that their school camping trip was more important than those things?

That you can rationalize anything to fit your choices.

Re: I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

#74

Post by nradov »

rayiner wrote: post #10
fooddood wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the definition of a child's long term prosperity? Is it grades or does it take into account emotional/physical well-being? And do those studies go into adulthood?

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f239/63aabbc3053bba4c5a5e68... > This research examined the association between parenting style and life satisfaction in adulthood (N=112). Participants responded to an online survey, called the Parenting Style and Life Satisfaction Survey, which included questions pertaining to parenting style experienced in childhood, parenting style used in adulthood, and levels of life satisfactio…

Is life satisfaction the correct metric?

Re: I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

#75

Post by zcid »

kgwgk wrote: post #45
zcid wrote: post #30

I don't want to be too harsh, but I can't respect her decision. It's selfish, and not properly caring for the next generation is a dead giveaway of a sick society.

Unlike your father? You say in another comment the you "wouldn't ever disparage him" for work-related absences.

It's not apparent to me from the article that this woman is making a serious attempt to make up for those absences. That she wrote this almost seems like a celebration of her choice to de-prioritize them. My father would be gone for a week, but then home for a week. When he was home, he was 100% available to us.

Re: I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

#76

Post by barry-cotter »

skinnymuch wrote: post #63
rayiner wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans assign a silly and unjustified sentimental value to things like birthday parties and school outings. Part of my wife’s family is Jehovah’s witnesses, who don’t even celebrate birthdays. Are those kids somehow missing out? Do you think the immigrant parents that own a Chinese restaurant open seven days a week make it to any of their kids school functions or camping trips? Are they being irreparably damaged?

I don’t know the complete details of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But then not celebrating birthdays along with not celebrating [almost] any other major fun holiday among things does seem to be a definite negative aspect. I’ve read if you accuse someone in the religion of abuse and the only thing you have is he said she said, then the accuser is essentially iced out and ostracized from their religious culture/society. This i…

Witnesses miss out on birthdays, non Witnesses miss out on being a part of their community with the benefits and disadvantages that come with that. I’m not familiar with them but any demanding (and hence cohesive) religious community I’m aware of is it’s own social group, support network, family substitute if someone is sick or when somebody dies or just needs to move. Mormons celebrate birthdays but the adults have to give up alcohol, caffeine, swearing and R-rated movies. Communities are bundles of goods, they don’t come à la carte. Religious communities that demand nothing from their adherents other than weekly attendance and nothing else that is not appropriate to their social and class position like Unitarianism, Episcopalianism or Liberal Judaism wither because people wonder why they bother attending.

Communities demand and give different things. Birthday parties seem a very small thing to give up if an actual community is what you get in return.

Regarding accusations why should making accusations be costless? If you’re trying to drum someone out of a community and fail to bring convincing evidence they kick you out. It’s just a community deciding on its internal norms. The US legal system has different burdens of proof and punishments when it comes to slander but the US system is still available to them. Communities exist outside the state.

Re: I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

#77

Post by hindsightbias »

One morning, about 2am in one of the Mission Control rooms at JSC, I was sitting next to two semi-retired flight controllers managing a simulation. They went back to Apollo.

One of my 20-something peers walked back to our row where the pizza boxes lay, ruffled through them, sighed “its all cold” and walked back to his terminal.

Now, we’d been doing this for weeks.

Old fart #1 turns to #2 and says under his breath “You know, I gave up my marriage and kids to get us to the moon”

And so they did.

Re: I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

#78

Post by react_burger38 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #76
skinnymuch wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know the complete details of Jehovah’s Witnesses. But then not celebrating birthdays along with not celebrating [almost] any other major fun holiday among things does seem to be a definite negative aspect. I’ve read if you accuse someone in the religion of abuse and the only thing you have is he said she said, then the accuser is essentially iced out and ostracized from their religious culture/society. This i…

Witnesses miss out on birthdays, non Witnesses miss out on being a part of their community with the benefits and disadvantages that come with that. I’m not familiar with them but any demanding (and hence cohesive) religious community I’m aware of is it’s own social group, support network, family substitute if someone is sick or when somebody dies or just needs to move. Mormons celebrate birthdays but the adults have…

Small correction -- members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (of which I am one) don't have to give up on caffeine. There were some people who taught and practiced that, but that is largely in the past.

Even BYU, the church-owned school, now sells fully-caffeinated Coke on campus. This was a fairly recent development.

As well, members are encouraged to avoid any media that includes sexually explicit, violent, or otherwise negative content -- not only avoiding R-rated movies. The church teaches that people should be careful about their media choices and consume media that enlightens or edifies, not just entertains. Active members of the church definitely vary in how they interpret that, of course.

I do love your point about sacrificing some things and getting a community in return. I work as a software engineer and at the age of 25 I already have two kids. My wife and I definitely sacrifice for them, but I hope we can build a loving family that will give us social returns that are lifelong. Growing up, I had a large network of cousins and siblings that were closer to me than friends were. I know much of this is because of the influence of the church.

It is also true that being a member gives you a network of people -- people are always around to help you move in and out, they're always there every Sunday, etc. Members are assigned "ministers", two people who check up on them, are officially assigned to love them, and report back to the leadership of each ward (congregation) regularly about any problems the people they minister to may have. All this in addition to the friendships that naturally form with people you see once a week.

Sacrificing alcohol, swearing, and other things -- tithing, Sundays, a two year-mission -- seems like a small trade in comparison for the creation of relationships with people who love you and who you love in return.

Re: I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

#79

Post by barry-cotter »

Dayshine wrote: post #71
rayiner wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re going to assert that a group of people should forgo a major aspect of life, it’s incumbent on you to actually provide evidence that shows concrete and major harms from that combination of life choices. And that evidence just doesn’t exist. In most situations, if you tell people they shouldn’t do X without citing concrete evidence that X is bad, your viewpoint won’t be taken seriously. In the area of parenti…

It's 1am so you get the first result I found. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027795360... Let me know if you don't have access to the journal. That's 2-3 times increased chance of measurable mental health problems if parents work outside of 9-5

The long run effects of adoption on personality attributes and IQ is indistinguishable from zero. People are as like their biological siblings whether they ever meet them or not, and as like their adoptive siblings as any random stranger. Outside major abuse and genetic contributions parents have limited effects on adult outcomes.

If the worst parents working more does to children is a less happy childhood on average that’s a hard choice to condemn. Normal people send their children to child warehousing facilities where they’re taught to sit down, shut up and do as they’re told while subjected to busywork, boredom, ranking and the ennui of meaninglessness for over a decade instead of letting them grow and play and they don’t get judged much for it.

Re: I’ve Picked My Job over My Kids

#80

Post by dragonwriter »

Dayshine wrote: post #20

If you don't want to prioritise your kids over your job... don't have kids . Contraception is pretty damn effective, and people often have children for entirely selfish reasons. A dog isn't for christmas, and your kids aren't just cute toys until you get bored of raising them. There are plenty of people who are willing, enough that we won't have population problems.

> If you don't want to prioritise your kids over your job... don't have kids.

Having kids while prioritizing job over direct care and attention to them has been an accepted (and often expected) pattern for men for centuries. (And for much of that time for upper and often middle class [0] women, too, though their primary vocations weren't “jobs” in the usual sense.)

Should it be surprising or any worse that when women are sole or co-equal breadwinners, that the same is often true of women with jobs?

[0] “middle class” in the sense of the petit bourgeoisie, not the other common modern American usage, where it refers to the middle income segment which is almost entirely within the working class.

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