Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World • Hacker News Board

Re: Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World

#71

Post by bin0 » Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

inapis wrote: post #4

noja wrote: post #2

Is there an ordered list of what produces most pollution? What's at the top? Is there an easy way to answer the question "I just did environmentally bad thing X, now what can I do to offset that?"

Yes. Fossil fuels for power generation, followed by transportation and industry [1] > Is there an easy way to answer the question "I just did environmentally bad thing X, now what can I do to offset that?" Little bit but to seriously make an impact you might have to look for alternative sources of powering your life. But nevertheless every single bit helps. This climate change conundrum cannot be fixed without the en…

> cannot be fixed without the entire planet committing to it.

And if the entire planet will not commit as you desire? Then what will you do? War is the ultimate extension of any policy; will you personally go kill other people because they burn oil?

I've got nothing against renewables, but don't like this kind of absolutist rhetoric.

Re: Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World

#72

Post by spynxic » Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

bin0 wrote: post #63

midnitewarrior wrote: post #17

Telling a lie then saying 3 Hail Marys means you are forgiven for the lie, it doesn't fix the lie. As such, planting a tree to be forgiven for going on a flight that burns carbon-laden jet fuel doesn't fix what you did. Fossil fuels are excess carbon atoms sequestered safely deep inside the Earth. Unless you can find a way to put them back there, there's no fixing the situation. Planting a tree does capture carbon. H…

> The only way this is happening is if the planet gets depopulated of humans rapidly. Please don't tell me you're one of those "earth would be better of were we all dead" people. I can't stand that kind of post-modernist, nihilistic garbage. I'm not mister optimist, but still, that's way too far. Also, that kind of rhetoric is going to end up being a justification for some one very evil doing some thing very bad. > T…

The proposed solution of depopulation is based on a flawed premise. It isn't necessarily true that a growing population needs greater access to fossil fuel. Rather, as access to fossil fuel grows so can the population.

Re: Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World

#73

Post by valw » Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

midnitewarrior wrote: post #17

Telling a lie then saying 3 Hail Marys means you are forgiven for the lie, it doesn't fix the lie. As such, planting a tree to be forgiven for going on a flight that burns carbon-laden jet fuel doesn't fix what you did. Fossil fuels are excess carbon atoms sequestered safely deep inside the Earth. Unless you can find a way to put them back there, there's no fixing the situation. Planting a tree does capture carbon. H…

You seem to imply that planting trees cannot durably decrease the CO2 levels in the atmosphere; if so, your reasoning and conclusion are incorrect.

Increasing the biomass of trees (e.g, growing a new forest) does reduce the CO2 levels; true, each tree in this forest will at some point die and re-release its carbon, but another will grow in its place; therefore, if the forest has grown and stays there forever the the result will be a net negative contribution to CO2 levels forever as well.

That of course does not change the fact that carbon offsetting alone is NOT a sufficient way to tackle climate change. Please do reduce your carbon footprint people, and encourage others to do so. Of course, there's nothing wrong with planting trees in addition (not instead of) reducing your emissions - you can think of it as charity for the planet; if you're interested in donating money so that forests get protected / grown, I recommend Stand For Trees: https://standfortrees.org/en/#protect-a-forest (I'm not affiliated with them).

Please people, be careful about what you write on these topics. We really need a high bar on scientific rigour on these topics if we are to act effectively.

Re: Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World

#74

Post by nikehat » Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 3:30 PM UTC

sampo wrote: post #10

nabla9 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list you provide is missing some man made sources of CO2 and methane. It's just CO2 emissions from fuel combustion. Meat production is almost as much as transportation, roughly 17%.

> Meat production is almost as much as transportation, roughly 17%. That 17% includes all transportation related to meat production. If meat was replaced by plant-based foods, not all of that transportation could be eliminated.

Livestock consume far more feed grains (mostly corn) than they produce food on their own [1]. The transportation costs to feed them are greater than the transportation costs would be if we were to feed humans on plant based foods, so transportation would actually be reduced if we lowered the amount of animal products we consume.

[1] http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-mi...

Re: Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World

#75

Post by TeMPOraL » Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 3:30 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #52

midnitewarrior wrote: post #17

Telling a lie then saying 3 Hail Marys means you are forgiven for the lie, it doesn't fix the lie. As such, planting a tree to be forgiven for going on a flight that burns carbon-laden jet fuel doesn't fix what you did. Fossil fuels are excess carbon atoms sequestered safely deep inside the Earth. Unless you can find a way to put them back there, there's no fixing the situation. Planting a tree does capture carbon. H…

> all the carbon gets re-released over time back May I question the veracity of this statement ? wood decay does release atoms back in the air, but some may be captured on the ground, some may be captured by the plants/trees nearby. I highly doubt 100% goes back airborne. Also there are other factors with more trees, they interfere with winds, create shadows. Some say massive forest also transpire humidity. All this…

> Some say massive forest also transpire humidity. All this might be positive to dampen climate change (if done worldwide).

Caveat though: higher humidity + rising temperatures = bad. The more humid the air is, the worse evaporative cooling works, which means it's that much harder for human body to keep its temperature in check. For example, [0] tells us that at 46 °C and 50% humidity, humans can no longer cool down through sweating - i.e. the ambient air becomes deadly to all humans.

--

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet-bulb_temperature.

Re: Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World

#76

Post by lifeisstillgood » Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

midnitewarrior wrote: post #17

Telling a lie then saying 3 Hail Marys means you are forgiven for the lie, it doesn't fix the lie. As such, planting a tree to be forgiven for going on a flight that burns carbon-laden jet fuel doesn't fix what you did. Fossil fuels are excess carbon atoms sequestered safely deep inside the Earth. Unless you can find a way to put them back there, there's no fixing the situation. Planting a tree does capture carbon. H…

Nah, Dr Evil has me run the numbers and it turns out that killing six billion people, you have all their body mass rotting and putting carbon back into the atmosphere, add on top transport costs and so on - it just was not worth it.

Seems much simpler to fix global politics and improve technology.

Re: Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World

#77

Post by icxa » Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 3:32 PM UTC

bin0 wrote: post #63

midnitewarrior wrote: post #17

Telling a lie then saying 3 Hail Marys means you are forgiven for the lie, it doesn't fix the lie. As such, planting a tree to be forgiven for going on a flight that burns carbon-laden jet fuel doesn't fix what you did. Fossil fuels are excess carbon atoms sequestered safely deep inside the Earth. Unless you can find a way to put them back there, there's no fixing the situation. Planting a tree does capture carbon. H…

> The only way this is happening is if the planet gets depopulated of humans rapidly. Please don't tell me you're one of those "earth would be better of were we all dead" people. I can't stand that kind of post-modernist, nihilistic garbage. I'm not mister optimist, but still, that's way too far. Also, that kind of rhetoric is going to end up being a justification for some one very evil doing some thing very bad. > T…

If these people really believed that overpopulation was the problem, then why don't they start depopulating with themselves?*

It sounds terrible I know, but it serves to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the stance. Like George Carlin said,

"I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is that there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a shit about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me."

* note: don't actually do this if you believe this wretched, damned worldview, go seek help, I don't really want anyone to off themselves because they think it "helps the world"

Re: Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World

#78

Post by seanwilson » Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 3:33 PM UTC

> “There are cement products with lower environmental impact, but they usually cost more than the normal ones”

Is anywhere in the world starting to charge for the externalised costs that allow the less sustainable option to be cheaper like in this example? What are the issues with this solution?

Re: Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World

#79

Post by yters » Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

bin0 wrote: post #67

yters wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear power doesn't seem too politically non viable, especially if the alternative is rapid depopulation.

> rapid depopulation What exactly do you mean by this, and how would you accomplish it? Assuming, that is, that nuclear doesn't work (for whatever reason), as you've drawn a dichotomy.

Dump some infertility causing chemical in all the water supplies. Or, nuke a bunch of countries, which has the added bonus of cooling down the earth.

But, it's unclear that even completely eliminating humanity would reverse global warming.

Re: Cement Produces More Pollution Than All the Trucks in the World

#80

Post by galangalalgol » Sun, Jun 23, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

shereadsthenews wrote: post #40

taneq wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With hollow walls you can just use blow-in wool or cellulose insulation to make it even better. Can't really improve concrete without gluing polystyrene to it. Hmm, could you just mix expanded polystyrene balls in to cement to make a high-R composite that's still strong enough to be structural?

Usually concrete walls have a foam core. Solid concrete is only about R0.5/in, about half as good as wood. Even so, insulated cavities are totally obsolete. Exterior foam is far superior.

What are the common ways to protect the exterior foam?