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Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#71

Post by knolax »

zapzupnz wrote: post #65
bnjms wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it would never be used in Chinese or Korean writing. It would only ever be used for Latin alphabets when the order of names is reversed from the norm.

Again, such things are not used in Chinese or Korean names — in the Latin alphabet. I was sure I didn't have to spell that out. No need to make an exception for Japanese, no need to start inventing needless uses for punctuation. The world is spinning just fine with names like Xi Jinping and Kim Jong-Un, free of superfluous characters marking their first and last names.

I've seen tabloid rags refer to Kim Jong Un as [sic] "Mister Un" more times than I can count. I think it would be useful to be able to know the ordering of a name without having to look it up.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#72

Post by cbhl »

midhir wrote: post #70
HuShifang wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. This is, actually, a regular (if not standard) practice in many domains of academic bibliography for Chinese authors (which is useful, as some individuals with Chinese personal and family names working in Anglophone contexts do follow the English convention of putting personal names first -- meaning that you often can't tell which is the personal and which is the family name in pinyin, e.g. "Li Jia") Fun fact:…

That's interesting, I thought the given name in Chinese was almost always two characters. Is this not the case? 我是中文学生 :) Funnily the first thing you learn in Chinese is how to say who you are. But there's very little help with actually picking a Chinese name!

given name != surname

surname = "last" name = family name

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#73

Post by headsupftw »

midhir wrote: post #70
HuShifang wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. This is, actually, a regular (if not standard) practice in many domains of academic bibliography for Chinese authors (which is useful, as some individuals with Chinese personal and family names working in Anglophone contexts do follow the English convention of putting personal names first -- meaning that you often can't tell which is the personal and which is the family name in pinyin, e.g. "Li Jia") Fun fact:…

That's interesting, I thought the given name in Chinese was almost always two characters. Is this not the case? 我是中文学生 :) Funnily the first thing you learn in Chinese is how to say who you are. But there's very little help with actually picking a Chinese name!

"I thought the given name in Chinese was almost always two characters. Is this not the case?"

Not at all. Nowadays there are hundreds of millions of people in Mainland China with a single-character given name. Case in point: former tennis player Li Na, former basketball player Yao Ming.

I say "Mainland China" because I notice people from Hongkong and Taiwan have mostly two-character given names.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#74

Post by zapzupnz »

knolax wrote: post #71
zapzupnz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, such things are not used in Chinese or Korean names — in the Latin alphabet. I was sure I didn't have to spell that out. No need to make an exception for Japanese, no need to start inventing needless uses for punctuation. The world is spinning just fine with names like Xi Jinping and Kim Jong-Un, free of superfluous characters marking their first and last names.

I've seen tabloid rags refer to Kim Jong Un as [sic] "Mister Un" more times than I can count. I think it would be useful to be able to know the ordering of a name without having to look it up.

Or just not read tabloids which, despite being rags, should know better anyway. Actually, it's because a journalistic publication should know better that I'm inclined to call such an example wilful ignorance.

People not knowing the Japanese name order, that's something that can be overcome with just the most minor amount of education. People who steadfastly get it wrong despite the standards of their profession, they don't count.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#75

Post by headsupftw »

In terms of Chinese names, my observation is that in English media, if your name is printed as "first_name last_name" then you haven't made it yet. But if you are somebody, your name will appear as "last_name first_name". E.g. Xi Jinping, Mao Zedong, Deng Xiaoping. When was the last time you heard "Ming Yao the former Rockets center"?

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#76

Post by xucheng »

xxpor wrote: post #2

English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. For example, this would make it ABE Shinzo, which would remove ambiguity. When encountering East (thanks for the reminder) Asian (or Hungarian, for that matter) names in emails for example, I'm usually worried about if their "last" name in the directory is their given name and what they should be addressed by or their actual last name.

Yes, this works well in writing and it is common practice in Eastern Asia. However, how about oral conversation?

Sometimes, I am not sure what is the proper way to introduce my Chinese name in English conversations? If I put family name at first, it would confuse English speakers. If I put given name first, the sound of my name feels so weird to me as that is not what I heard outside English environments.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#77

Post by zapzupnz »

FabHK wrote: post #57
zapzupnz wrote: post #40

This is fantastic. Living in both the English and Japanese-speaking worlds, it'll be nice not having to go through mental gymnastics to remember how to call somebody in whichever language. I think consistency is preferable; it's surely not impossible for people to be educated on name order.

> This is fantastic. Living in both the English and Japanese-speaking worlds [...] I think consistency is preferable If I'm not mistaken, his suggestion would make the Japanese convention less consistent with the English convention (while making it more consistent with the Chinese convention).

It would make the English rendering of Japanese names consistent with … well, themselves. 安倍 (Abe) 晋三 (Shinzo) will be Abe Shinzo, not Shinzo Abe.

The Japanese don't reverse Western names, so Steve Jobs is never Jobs Steve.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#78

Post by dsr_ »

xucheng wrote: post #76
xxpor wrote: post #2

English should adopt the French convention of capitalizing the family (last) name. For example, this would make it ABE Shinzo, which would remove ambiguity. When encountering East (thanks for the reminder) Asian (or Hungarian, for that matter) names in emails for example, I'm usually worried about if their "last" name in the directory is their given name and what they should be addressed by or their actual last name.

Yes, this works well in writing and it is common practice in Eastern Asia. However, how about oral conversation? Sometimes, I am not sure what is the proper way to introduce my Chinese name in English conversations? If I put family name at first, it would confuse English speakers. If I put given name first, the sound of my name feels so weird to me as that is not what I heard outside English environments.

"Hello, I'm Cheng Xu. Please call me Cheng."

or

"Hello, I'm Xu Cheng. Please call me Cheng."

solves the problem either way.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#79

Post by readyp1 »

mimixco wrote: post #67

So does this mean the Minister's name is Tara KONO or Kono TARA? I can't tell from this article. I totally understand people wanting to have their names written correctly, but if the reader is confused, is that going to help people to understand one's name correctly? In the US, I don't think it would.

Represented as the Minister proposes, it would be KONO Tarо̄. This relies on a bit of cultural knowledge; 太郎 (Tarо̄) is a very common first name for males in Japan.

The article is a smidge ironic, though; in this article about proposing a Last First standard, the Times refers to the promulgator via First Last. I suppose they're technically in keeping with current standards by using First Last, since the Minister's proposal is brand new.

Re: Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names

#80

Post by hyperrail »

There is an impressive amount of variation regarding personal name formats even within Asia.

In my culture (Thai), I put my given name first and then my family name (inherited from my father), like in most of the west, but actually my name of formal address is my first, given name, and my family name is hardly ever used except as a differentiator. [1]

In Vietnamese culture, I believe the given name is also the name of formal address, yet the family name comes first as in China and Japan. Hence Nguyen Anh would be called "Anh".

[1] http://blog.jclark.com/2007/12/thai-personal-names.html

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