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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#71

Post by pjmlp »

craigsmansion wrote: post #58
threeseed wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So real-world Python is: Two languages to learn. Two languages to support. Two development environments. Two build tools. Two CI/CD pipelines. Two testing infrastructure. Two sets of code and security reviews. Double the complexity and for what exactly ?

Except when all developers already know C, which is really what you want, seeing how no one ever rises above their level of C proficiency in any other imperative language.

Given the CVE database, all hope is lost if those programmers can never rise about their level of C profency.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#72

Post by threeseed »

realusername wrote: post #56
pjmlp wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that Kotlin still lags behind Java compiler speed and it is heavily dependent on Java libraries.

All of these are technical issues which will be solved by Google eventually, I'm not worrying much about that, they definitely have the resources to make it work.

Kotlin is owned by JetBrains not Google.

And there is Kotlin-Native but the likelihood of JetBrains reimplementing the entire JVM SDK is pretty slim. Not to mention all of the common third party libraries e.g. Guava, HTTPClient.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#73

Post by marak830 »

ethbro wrote: post #39
marak830 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hand up uh not as experienced as most people on HN, what's the hate for c#? I went from vb6 to VB.net then c# and while I fully admit I'm a casual coder, i haven't had an issue (with what I do, which is voice to string primarily) so far. Is there something better for this I perhaps should look into?

Most of the hate around C# stems from Ballmer-era interoperability blocks, specifically some hot / cold dithering on the work Mono was doing to make it truly cross-platform.

Hmm I hadn't really considered cross-platform(as I mentioned above aside from a forced forey into Mac ATM dur to work, I've always been windows).

I'm thinking perhaps I should take some primers on non windows coding, and the advantages there of. Anyone have any good beginners links (note I'm fairly adept at Java, .net, vb and such, just trying to find a good place - and reason - to learn something cross platform).

Pre:edit: I don't mean this to sound argumentative about platforms, just honestly looking for some good resources (and I'm fairly time constrained)

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#74

Post by fmhul »

evgen wrote: post #70
shadowmint wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lovely theory, but in practice it works more like this: 1) write everything in python because its easy and quick to do so. 2) its slow as. 3) abandon software and write it in something else, or, live on with slow ass software and blame python for being slow and rubbish forever more. re-writing python in c is a hideously painful process, and its proven to be very unsuccessful practically. Writing new code in c/c++/wha…

No, in practice is works something like this: 1) write everything in python 2) yeah, the performance here is good enough so ship it 3) there is no 3 There are very few situations where performance is going to be an issue for you where there is not an existing C module solution that will solve the problem for you. The tired old 'python is slow' trope is getting more and more irrelevant every day. There are other aspec…

Reddit disagrees. And they weren't using 3, which is even slower.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#75

Post by marak830 »

agumonkey wrote: post #20
DonHopkins wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.

Nice joke (apparently bad taste for the HN crowd). That said is C# really great ? come on .. they have F#, and F > C. QED

Honestly I'm not joking, but I am a casual coder. I have only learnt what I need to do, to do certain things. Which compared to most here isn't that much. (See my other responses, I'd actually love some input there, just wish I had more time to learn)

Edit: as to the reference to the last part of your comment, I have only been using what I knew to do the job I needed, I'm not a full time coder so I can't search the latest and greatest, another reason I picked this thread to ask :-)

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#76

Post by ivan_gammel »

threeseed wrote: post #57
acqq wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying So how is this "JVM world" escaping the grip of Oracle? E.g. graalvm is directly Oracle's, or am I missing something? Specifically, what is preventing any of the Java-related things people use now (including those that you mention) to end like the OP is describing? Asking as somebody outside of that world, but interested "how much it's worth consi…

OpenJDK is an open distribution and preinstalled on all major operating systems and is now the standard JVM for most developers. We even have open distributions of it e.g. Amazon Coretto. GraalVM isn't even at version 1.0 so nothing at all to worry about.

Since when OpenJDK is preinstalled on Windows?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#77

Post by _lbaq »

acqq wrote: post #62
_lbaq wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Graal Community Edition is licensed under GPL, there is a Enterprise Edition that has additional features that is licensed differently. OpenJDK does not need commercial licensing, but Oracle JDK which is built from OpenJDK needs. Then there are plenty of other vendors to chose from if you absolutely does not want to interact with Oracle. IBM and now Eclipse foundation OpenJ9 is a very interesting TCK compliant JVM, t…

GPL is not usable for any small company which doesn't want to publish its own sources. What can be used only using BSD, MIT, Apache licenses? And what from the GPL-licensed products is safe to use to produce and sell own closed source products (e.g. where the exception to GPL exists for just linking the libraries or similar)? Edit1: Long term dangers/costs of depending on the technologies that need commercial license…

You probably use Linux today, that fact does not require you to publish the source for your program running on Linux.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#78

Post by dtech »

> And the idea that corporate developers or even frankly any developers are switching to LLVM and WebAssembly en masse is pretty ridiculous.

There is only 1 popular language released since 2009 that targets JVM: Kotlin. All other target JS, their own bytecode or LLVM: Go, Rust, Dart, Elixer, Julia, Typescript, Swift.

This is a significant difference from 2003-2009 languages which all targeted JVM unless they were Microsofts: Groovy, Scala and Clojure.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#79

Post by realusername »

threeseed wrote: post #67
realusername wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not go as far to say it's dying but it's heavily slowing down for sure. First because of the big move out of the "entreprise" software and secondly because of Oracle legal team. It's definitely due to the licensing that Android is switching to Kotlin for example.

a) Java/JVM hasn't moved out of the enterprise space at all. Not sure where you got that idea. b) Android isn't switching to Kotlin because of licensing since it is a JVM language after all. It's purely because it is a much better language than Java and has great tooling courtesy of Jetbrains.

> a) Java/JVM hasn't moved out of the enterprise space at all. Not sure where you got that idea.

It's the opposite, it's that old school entreprise type software & frameworks are getting less used.

> b) Android isn't switching to Kotlin because of licensing since it is a JVM language after all. It's purely because it is a much better language than Java and has great tooling courtesy of Jetbrains.

I think it's a mix of both, getting sued by Oracle probably did not help.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#80

Post by realusername »

threeseed wrote: post #72
realusername wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these are technical issues which will be solved by Google eventually, I'm not worrying much about that, they definitely have the resources to make it work.

Kotlin is owned by JetBrains not Google. And there is Kotlin-Native but the likelihood of JetBrains reimplementing the entire JVM SDK is pretty slim. Not to mention all of the common third party libraries e.g. Guava, HTTPClient.

> Kotlin is owned by JetBrains not Google.

Yes but there's a lot of efforts from Google to support the language as well since now it's the new Android language.

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