A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics • Hacker News Board

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#71

Post by Kalium » Wed, May 01, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

zwkrt wrote: post #41

Kalium wrote: post #10

I can't speak for others on this, but I do have one: https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics Like medical and legal professionals, it is concerned with professional ethics. Many people would be surprised to find their personal ethics are not present.

'Contribute to society and to human well being'. So your personal ethics are only not present if you wear giant blinders around this statement. So many software devs hold positions that they could probably not defend ethically in casual conversation, it's an epidemic!

My apologies, I can see I've been unclear.

Many people expect ethical codes to expressly and explicitly include their personal ethical framework in clear detail, that they might use it to hold others to account. A reference to what someone personally considers to be a contribution to society and humanity might not rise to this standard.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#72

Post by kazagistar » Wed, May 01, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

glbrew wrote: post #43

Ironically technologists seem to have higher ethical standards than doctors and lawyers. Hell, the entire US medical system revolves around financial assault of the infirm.

Medical system vs medical professionals are very different. You can't solve systemic issues with individualized responsibility. It's not that doctors are bad, it's privatized healthcare that is causing the problem, and requires systemic solutions (since it's clear the same problems don't exist under other systems).

What's really happening here is that Facebook wants to push for blaming individuals, because it let's them keep doing whatever unethical things they want to, since they know that individual responsibility is toothless in the face of such a massive system like itself.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#73

Post by kazagistar » Wed, May 01, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #61

MangezBien wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making missile guidance software is wholly unethical and is what we should be striving to prevent engineers from working on.

I bet the civilians who do not become collateral damage because the missile that was supposed to hit a military base did so due to good guidance software instead of missing and hitting their town would disagree. When a situation has escalated to the point that someone is launching missiles, it has usually reached the point where destroying the target is more important to them then the risk of collateral damage. If th…

How about getting rid of those bloodthirsty decision makers, and in the meantime not supporting their violent rampaging.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#74

Post by Bartweiss » Wed, May 01, 2019, 3:15 PM UTC

mothsonasloth wrote: post #32

WalterSear wrote: post #12

I can't wait till software development is as ethical as the medical and legal industries.

So, prone to negligence and high fees?

Point well taken, but that's underselling the problem by a lot. The American Psychological Association has a clear, strong code of ethics, but worked to help the CIA design torture programs. Not just 'psychologists' but the APA itself.

Codes of professional ethics seem to offer some defense against total indifference to malpractice and incompetence, as with civil engineering restrictions. People holding out for them to do more, especially around conscious decisions like political work, seem to seriously overestimate what they've achieved in the past.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#75

Post by Kalium » Wed, May 01, 2019, 3:17 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #67

7402 wrote: post #29

See ACM (Association for Computing Machinery) Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct at https://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics/ Here are the main points: 1. GENERAL MORAL IMPERATIVES. As an ACM member I will 1.1 Contribute to society and human well-being. 1.2 Avoid harm to others. 1.3 Be honest and trustworthy. 1.4 Be fair and take action not to discriminate. 1.5 Honor property rights including copyrights and patent.…

This is kind of grossly simplified though, isn't it? > 1.2 Avoid harm to others So no smart weapons which minimize collateral damage? > 1.5 Honor property rights including copyrights and patent. So no Sci-Hub? What about bad copyrights? > 1.8 Honor confidentiality. What about whistleblowing?

It's worth mentioning that the text you are responding to is the overview. The ACM offers greater detail that addresses your concerns: https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics

> So no smart weapons which minimize collateral damage?

This section is concerned with indirect and unintentional harm. Weapons tend to be a problem for every ethical system. Here, my reading would be that weapons should work as intended.

> So no Sci-Hub? What about bad copyrights?

What is a bad copyright is not a question for the ACM code of ethics. You'll find a more detailed examination of intellectual property in the full code of ethics.

> What about whistleblowing?

An excellent question! I'll just quote from the discussion directly:

> Computing professionals are often entrusted with confidential information such as trade secrets, client data, nonpublic business strategies, financial information, research data, pre-publication scholarly articles, and patent applications. Computing professionals should protect confidentiality except in cases where it is evidence of the violation of law, of organizational regulations, or of the Code. In these cases, the nature or contents of that information should not be disclosed except to appropriate authorities. A computing professional should consider thoughtfully whether such disclosures are consistent with the Code.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#76

Post by klagermkii » Wed, May 01, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

I don't think you can compare the relationship of a company to customers, to that of a one-to-one relationship of a doctor or a lawyer. The company acts as a third party with very different (and often directly conflicting with the end user) aims that creates a much harder ethical situation for a developer to navigate and creates confusion as to who has the responsibility to sound the alarm.

I think of something like legal or medical confidentiality, which can involve their clients doing pretty horrible things but it being the "ethical" thing to not reveal that. If one takes this same thing to a Facebook scenario, does the developer who works for Facebook then have the obligation to protect the confidentiality of Facebook even if they're doing awful things? Would it be any different where a lawyer is working for a horrible client, trying to use the law to do things that are a net-negative for society, but ethics would put their obligation towards their direct client rather than society at large.

If one then wants to write a piece about ethics, one should start with examples of fields with ethical codes that have a structure closer to the relationship of users/Facebook/developers.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#77

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 01, 2019, 3:22 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #67

7402 wrote: post #29

See ACM (Association for Computing Machinery) Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct at https://ethics.acm.org/code-of-ethics/ Here are the main points: 1. GENERAL MORAL IMPERATIVES. As an ACM member I will 1.1 Contribute to society and human well-being. 1.2 Avoid harm to others. 1.3 Be honest and trustworthy. 1.4 Be fair and take action not to discriminate. 1.5 Honor property rights including copyrights and patent.…

This is kind of grossly simplified though, isn't it? > 1.2 Avoid harm to others So no smart weapons which minimize collateral damage? > 1.5 Honor property rights including copyrights and patent. So no Sci-Hub? What about bad copyrights? > 1.8 Honor confidentiality. What about whistleblowing?

[deleted]

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#78

Post by analognoise » Wed, May 01, 2019, 3:24 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #66

analognoise wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve. War is an ever-present possibility - do you want your neighbor's kids (or yours, if they join the service) dying or being maimed because you didn't help with what you know? 1000 years ago, if you were a blacksmith and the Vikings were coming, would you make swords or ornamental railings? People w…

I suspect that if people could rely on that the weapons they make are used defensively, many more would be willing to make weapons. In many countries, you can't rely on that, and making tools that reduce risk increase the leaderships willingness to use force more offensively. And of course there's a large unclear area where one persons long-term defensive measure is another persons justified intervention, and another…

Agreed about risk reduction leading to increased use of force, that's totally the case - look at drones.

However while the frequency might increase, the scale and impact is at an all-time low.

WW1: 40 million dead. Drones: "According to the Long War Journal, which follows US anti-terror developments, as of mid-2011, drone strikes in Pakistan since 2006 had killed 2,018 militants and 138 civilian". Hard to argue with those numbers for a 5 year period. Roughly 20 people a year die by being crushed by their TV's and furniture in the US a year - we don't stop selling furniture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._...

I mean how can you NOT support several thousand dead militants, with that minor a civilian cost? I'd happily accept a far higher civilian cost for the decimation of militants, but our guys are exceedingly professional and their precision is legendary.

Mistakes happen, sure, but in comparison to the 20th century, we're doing great!

We're doing so good, maybe we should argue that we need MORE precision weapons, given how much they've reduced overall conflict and the fact that large governments are no longer as willing to go toe-to-toe because of them.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#79

Post by briandear » Wed, May 01, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #26

ReptileMan wrote: post #18

No we shouldn't. Obey your personal codes and follow the laws. Tech is fun. Let's keep it that way.

So we shouldn't have a code of ethics because it would make tech "less fun"? That's actually a good demonstration of why we do need a code of ethics.

A code of ethics is meaningless for “tech” (whatever that is.) Medicine and law have licensing. Violating professional ethics can result in a loss of licensing. In “tech” there isn’t such licensing, thus a code of ethics is just a platitude. There is nothing stopping you from writing your own code and following it.

As far as a code for all of tech, who would write such a thing? And how would it be enforced? And who would be obligated to follow it? Just people that write code? Or what about designers? And if designers have to follow the code, that would mean that they can be “kicked out” for non compliance, which means they have to be “allowed in.” So how does that work? Professional licensing for designers now too? A four-year degree along with a test on the Bauhaus and Human Interface Guidelines?

As far as licensing, that would make tech less fun. What would be the licensing requirements? Would it be like a coding interview with ridiculous whiteboard algorithm examples? Would you have to pass a test on front end frameworks? How about a test on Kubernetes? Would you have to have a degree in “tech?” Steve Wozniak wouldn’t have been eligible to work on Apple I. How about the Wright Brothers? They worked in a bike shop, how were they qualified to invent airplanes with engines? A proper authority ought to have shut them down promptly because clearly they weren’t qualified to be working on flying machines! The Bicycle Mechanics Code of Professional Ethics expressly prohibits working outside of the scope of your training and licensure right? Howard Hughes wasn’t a professional engineer, yet somehow he helped design the fastest airplane at the time.

You want ethics? Then act ethically. But the last thing we need is a gatekeeper organization deciding who is worthy or not to invent the future.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#80

Post by 7402 » Wed, May 01, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

LeonB wrote: post #25

seibelj wrote: post #5

Doctors protect life, and lawyers keep you out of jail. I guess software engineers can take an oath not to kill people or put people in jail, but after that it's your morals vs. mine, no? And if I work for the Department of Defense making missile guidance software, then it's OK to kill people, I suppose...

If you’re a lawyer representing a mass murderer you must still represent the interests of the client. To not do so would see you disbarred. So professional ethics can run counter to what a polite member of society would normally wish to do.

Although I believe lawyers are still required to disclose to the authorities any information concerning their clients' intention to commit a crime in the future - so the obligation to represent a client's interests is not unlimited.