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Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

theguardian.com

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Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#71

Post by CharlesColeman »

azangru wrote: post #64
saiya-jin wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Czechoslovakia was a part of the Soviet Bloc, wasn't it? Nope, we were a sovereign country, with socialistic/communistic government, but completely standalone. Same for Poland, Hungary, Romania etc.

Oh, it certainly wasn't part of the Soviet Union, if that's what you are referring to, but wasn't it part of some political configuration that made it possible for the Soviet Union to treat it as a satellite state and as a battleground of communist ideology against western democracy? Wikipedia, in the article on Soviet-Czechoslovakian relations[0], states that: "After February 1948 Czechoslovakia was firmly set into…

> I am merely saying that a bit disingenuous to suggest that...countries...are under any risk of Russian invasion. Ukraine might be; but even that doesn't seem all that likely.

The risk of Russia invading the Ukraine is 100%, because it already happened. The Russians even annexed part of it, to worldwide condemnation.

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#72

Post by inflatableDodo »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #68
inflatableDodo wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not defending Russia, or whataboutism. Is the international politics version of, 'yeah, but what are you'. All I am pointing out is that the US government would carry greater moral weight when lecturing others if it didn't keep invading places and propping up dictators. Also, the overall problems we are dealing with as humans are systemic and not specific to one country, so if trying to solve them, pointing finge…

> All I am pointing out is that the US government would carry greater moral weight when lecturing others if it didn't keep invading places and propping up dictators. I don't think that's actually true. If you're of the mind that you're going to find fault in the messenger to ignore/distract from the message, you're going to find some fault regardless of how well the messenger behaves (and the fault you choose does no…

>I don't think that's actually true.

Really?

>If you're of the mind that you're going to find fault in the messenger to ignore/distract from the message, you're going to find some fault regardless of how well the messenger behaves

Yes, but the mud sticks a lot better if it is made of fresh shit. To only regard the people bickering is a mistake. Is the people watching you have to really consider.

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#73

Post by azangru »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #71
azangru wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, it certainly wasn't part of the Soviet Union, if that's what you are referring to, but wasn't it part of some political configuration that made it possible for the Soviet Union to treat it as a satellite state and as a battleground of communist ideology against western democracy? Wikipedia, in the article on Soviet-Czechoslovakian relations[0], states that: "After February 1948 Czechoslovakia was firmly set into…

> I am merely saying that a bit disingenuous to suggest that...countries...are under any risk of Russian invasion. Ukraine might be; but even that doesn't seem all that likely. The risk of Russia invading the Ukraine is 100%, because it already happened. The Russians even annexed part of it, to worldwide condemnation.

> The risk of Russia invading the Ukraine is 100%, because it already happened. The Russians even annexed part of it, to worldwide condemnation.

Oh, I meant in the future. The risk of lightning striking the same house, as it were. Admitting a historically conflicted piece of territory whose population at the time is reported to have been overwhelmingly pro-russian and to have felt slighted by the anti-russian revolutionary government, and which even went through the perfunctory motions of a referendum to add some semblance of legitimacy to the process, is a fairly confusing case, for which, of course, Russia has its own exculpatory narrative. I was thinking of something more clear-cut. A declaration of war, an open military confrontation, that sort of thing.

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#74

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

madaxe_again wrote: post #23
lm28469 wrote: post #9

Have you seen the harness ? [0] You might be able to strap a gps or a camera on it, but a weapon ?! What's up with all the articles "russia/china bad" popping up recently ? > In 1980s Soviet Russia, a programme saw dolphins recruited for military training Yeah, just like any nation with enough defence budget. Dolphins/sea lions [1], dogs, rats [2], &c. are used all the time. [0] https://www.sciencealert.com/mysteriou…

A weapon is absolutely doable. The US military have dolphins trained both in mine detection and removal, and in mine placement - they attach a magnetic submersible charge to the harness, and the animal then rubs along the vessel, attaching the charge. The same technique is used for attaching tracking beacons, listening devices, and anything else you might want to affix to a target vessel. The behaviour that has been…

Occam's razor: an animal with a harness is annoyed having to wear it. especially since dolphins don't typically wear harnesses in the wild.

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#75

Post by CharlesColeman »

inflatableDodo wrote: post #72
CharlesColeman wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All I am pointing out is that the US government would carry greater moral weight when lecturing others if it didn't keep invading places and propping up dictators. I don't think that's actually true. If you're of the mind that you're going to find fault in the messenger to ignore/distract from the message, you're going to find some fault regardless of how well the messenger behaves (and the fault you choose does no…

>I don't think that's actually true. Really? >If you're of the mind that you're going to find fault in the messenger to ignore/distract from the message, you're going to find some fault regardless of how well the messenger behaves Yes, but the mud sticks a lot better if it is made of fresh shit. To only regard the people bickering is a mistake. Is the people watching you have to really consider.

> Yes, but the mud sticks a lot better if it is made of fresh shit.

Unfortunately, mud sticks well enough even if it isn't real, so I really don't think that's much of a concern.

>> All I am pointing out is that the US government would carry greater moral weight when lecturing others if it didn't keep invading places and propping up dictators.

Do you think anyone affected or with influence would give greater credence to US "lectures" if it had never invaded anyplace?

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#76

Post by ptr »

cf141q5325 wrote: post #50
ptr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden was already expecting a soviet invasion. OK, so you're arguing that the government invited NATO without letting the navy know? That sounds incredibly risky. Again, Occam's razor.

It doesnt really matter what I claim, what we know is sufficient and we have that already quoted here. > Classified documents point to covert US and UK activity. Former US secretary of defense Caspar Weinberger stated that Western submarines operated ‘regularly’ and ‘frequently’ in Swedish waters in order to ‘test’ the Swedish coastal defences, and former British navy minister Sir Keith Speed confirms the existence o…

That means that you are in fact arguing that the government invited Nato to invade Sweden without letting the armed forces know. This is incredibly reckless due to the decentralized nature of the command structure -- why would Nato put their crews in harm's way just to test the Swedish reaction? If exposed, the government officials could actually face charges of treason. Would they accept that personal risk, just to test Sweden's readiness...?

Doing these kind of reckless stunts just to get Sweden to side with Nato was definitely not needed. Sweden was already on Nato's side, and everyone knew that.

I can imagine Sweden's friends in Nato were invited from time to time to practice together. But that doesn't exclude a presence from the Soviet union, and we have actual proof (not just people saying things) that the Soviets were in fact in Swedish waters. Deep within a military protection area in a hard-to-navigate archipelago on top of it, and possibly with nuclear warhead torpedos!

Also when you refer to things such as

> Current Defense Minister Bjoern von Sydow said he was surprised, but added, ``I have no reason to question what a former U.S. defense secretary is saying.″

That just means that he can neither refute nor affirm whatever has been said. Ie, he either knows nothing, or can't say anything. The statement gives no information, except that he was personally surprised. A lot of statements from politicians are like this.

I'm signing off on this now. I don't understand your interest in this topic nor why it's so important for you to show that it wasn't the Soviet union. The Soviet union is gone, but they were a real threat back then.

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#77

Post by zaro »

nwmcsween wrote: post #69
zaro wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, a lot of English-speaking people see Russia as the “bad guy” right now. So a lot of English-speaking people are falling for mass media lies. And frankly it's getting ridiculous now days. It seems that whatever US media starts pushing out ( and it's usually w/o proof ) people will just eat it up. Not trying to defined anything here, but I kind of try to read news from all kind of source , and I can tell you http…

There has been lots of third party proof, I think you're just being selective in what you want to believe. There is no 'mass media lies'

Well what do you call it when each side reports extremely biased opinions that further only their cause and portrays the other side as the criminals?

We can call it also misinformation, fake news, ignorance or whatever. Does it really matter what is the exact word I used, given that it is occurring on a mass scale ?

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#78

Post by zaro »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #62
zaro wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, a lot of English-speaking people see Russia as the “bad guy” right now. So a lot of English-speaking people are falling for mass media lies. And frankly it's getting ridiculous now days. It seems that whatever US media starts pushing out ( and it's usually w/o proof ) people will just eat it up. Not trying to defined anything here, but I kind of try to read news from all kind of source , and I can tell you http…

Did the US media fabricate the invasion of Ukraine?

I don't know what are you talking about. What invasion ? Are you talking about the events surrounding this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum .

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#79

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

zaro wrote: post #78
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the US media fabricate the invasion of Ukraine?

I don't know what are you talking about. What invasion ? Are you talking about the events surrounding this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum .

"The referendum was regarded as illegitimate by most members of the European Union, the United States and Canada mainly due to Russian intervention.[13] Thirteen members of the United Nations Security Council voted in favor of a resolution declaring the referendum invalid, but Russia vetoed it and China abstained.[14][15] A United Nations General Assembly resolution was later adopted, by a vote of 100 in favor vs. 11 against with 58 abstentions, which declared the referendum invalid and affirmed Ukraine's territorial integrity."

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#80

Post by _iyig »

zaro wrote: post #78
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the US media fabricate the invasion of Ukraine?

I don't know what are you talking about. What invasion ? Are you talking about the events surrounding this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_...

"In February 2014, Russia made several military incursions into Ukrainian territory. After Euromaidan protests and the fall of Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych, Russian soldiers without insignias took control of strategic positions and infrastructure within the Ukrainian territory of Crimea. Russia then annexed Crimea after an unlawful referendum in which Crimeans voted to join the Russian Federation, according to Russian official results.[12][68][69][70][71] In April, demonstrations by pro-Russian groups in the Donbass area of Ukraine escalated into an armed conflict between the Ukrainian government and the Russia-backed separatist forces of the self-declared Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics. In August, Russian military vehicles crossed the border in several locations of Donetsk Oblast.[31][72][73][74][75] The incursion by the Russian military was seen as responsible for the defeat of Ukrainian forces in early September."

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