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What design tools get wrong

kilianvalkhof.com

71–80 of 84 posts

Re: What design tools get wrong

#71
post #20
post #5

Sounds like the author wants his tools to be as fully featured as the code that will embody the resultant design. In that case I would recommend learning more code instead of relying on a proxy that will never be as flexible. The best designers I’ve worked with not only understand their own domain but the possibilities and limitations of how it will be executed, because they are also developers.

When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better. That said, HTML & CSS is just how the world currently is. It doesn't mean that it is the best possi…

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better.

How about Cassowary, with size classes?

I spend half my programming time working on Mac software and half on web software, and I find element layout in the former is infinitely more pleasant. No need to put elements in a specific place in the document structure to lay them out the way I want. No need to change how I'm working for vertical versus horizontal layout. Just pick the dimension/coordinate you want to set, pick the other dimension/coordinate you want it to maintain its proportion to, and you're done.

Apple's implementation got a bad rap, I believe, because the first version of Xcode didn't support it well, the first version of the API was a terrible fit for Swift (which came a couple years after it), and pre-Sierra macOS had a lot of bugs in the implementation. Today, there's no layout system I'd rather use.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#72
post #20
post #5

Sounds like the author wants his tools to be as fully featured as the code that will embody the resultant design. In that case I would recommend learning more code instead of relying on a proxy that will never be as flexible. The best designers I’ve worked with not only understand their own domain but the possibilities and limitations of how it will be executed, because they are also developers.

When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better. That said, HTML & CSS is just how the world currently is. It doesn't mean that it is the best possi…

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible.

How do mac devs do this? Mac apps are some of the best around and both designers and developers appear to really like designing and developing mac apps.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, can you whip up an easy 3 column layout for me using the parts of CSS that are fully standardized? CSS does a lot of things really well, but makes some common tasks way more difficult than they need to be.

Sorry, I couldn't resist

[deleted]

Re: What design tools get wrong

#74
post #52
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. Uh huh. And how many years did it take to actually get Flexbox and CSS Grid? I mean...They're both still "Candidate Recommendations" in 2019. That's not even the penultimate level of rec…

> "People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't. I mean, I agree that developers shouldn't feel entitled to have all potential visitors using the most up-to-date software, but it is also definitely true that there is almost never an excuse to be using a web browser that doesn't automatically upda…

Browser that automatically update are actually hostile to the end user. The biggest effect is that it has been making it easier to create walled gardens on the internet.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't. And as long as Microsoft keeps shipping IE11, we're all doomed. Office drones aren't going to switch to something better until they're forced to. I can't believe Windows 10 still has IE11.

Windows 10 doesn't have IE 11 as the primary browser, and I'm not sure it ever has. IE is there for compatibility in enterprise environments. There are a lot of large organizations which still rely on older versions of SAP, Oracle and IBM applications, plus whatever ungodly niche vertical apps or in-house garbage was written back in the 90s. Microsoft has to cater to this environment because it's been the lifeblood o…

>Windows 10 doesn't have IE 11 as the primary browser, and I'm not sure it ever has.

LTSC/LTSB (LTS) versions of Windows 10 don't ship with Edge and it's not possible to install it. The same goes for Windows Server 2016 and 2019.

Microsoft made it impossible for enterprises to upgrade to Edge.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#76
post #5

Sounds like the author wants his tools to be as fully featured as the code that will embody the resultant design. In that case I would recommend learning more code instead of relying on a proxy that will never be as flexible. The best designers I’ve worked with not only understand their own domain but the possibilities and limitations of how it will be executed, because they are also developers.

I’m surprised there aren’t more design tools with scriptable interfaces. Unity does this really well and gives programmers the opportunity to easily code up solutions to help designers with custom workflows.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#77
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better. That said, HTML & CSS is just how the world currently is. It doesn't mean that it is the best possi…

>When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better. Easy, something like Winforms or one of its successors like whatever they make Win10 apps in. Even…

>Even the new Unity3D UI stuff is better.

Do you mean the new UI stuff that's based on CSS?

Re: What design tools get wrong

#78
post #71
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better. That said, HTML & CSS is just how the world currently is. It doesn't mean that it is the best possi…

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better. How about Cassowary, with size classes? I spend half my programming time working on Mac software…

Agree that it comes down to CSS (Box Model + Flex + Grid) vs Cassowary. I've never used it myself, so thanks for chiming in.

My understanding of it mostly comes from this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13125093) where the ReactNative team first attempted using Cassowary as their layout engine, but deemed it too complex/verbose and decided to use a subset of CSS. But as someone with actual comparative experience with both, would appreciate if you can tell me your thoughts on their conclusions.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#79
post #29
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better. That said, HTML & CSS is just how the world currently is. It doesn't mean that it is the best possi…

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. Uh huh. And how many years did it take to actually get Flexbox and CSS Grid? I mean...They're both still "Candidate Recommendations" in 2019. That's not even the penultimate level of rec…

You can use CSS grid just fine, it landed it the three major browsers at the same time. Only older IE will give you trouble, funny enough, because they were first to implement grid layouts.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, can you whip up an easy 3 column layout for me using the parts of CSS that are fully standardized? CSS does a lot of things really well, but makes some common tasks way more difficult than they need to be.

Sorry, I couldn't resist

table td {width:33.3333%;float:left;padding:10px;box-sizing:border-box;margin:0;display:block;border: none;border-collapse: inherit;border-spacing: 0;} table {width:100%}

lol

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